In this episode of Humane Marketing podcast, I’m joined by Rachel Allen for a deep dive into The Science of Buying. We explore how neuroscience and psychology quietly shape our buying decisions—and how understanding this can lead to more humane, effective sales.
From Rachel’s “magic equation” for building trust, to knowing when your message says just enough, this conversation is packed with insights for entrepreneurs who want to sell with empathy, not manipulation.
Whether you’re writing sales copy, nurturing relationships, or rethinking your entire approach, this episode will inspire a more connected and compassionate way to grow your business.
Here’s what we covered in this episode:
- Some surprising ways neuroscience and psychology influence our buying decisions—often before we’re even aware of it.
- Rachel’s ‘magic equation’ for sales—and how it helps build trust and connection.
- The subtle power of great sales copy and messaging to spark interest before someone consciously realizes they want to buy.
- How to know when you’ve said enough—or maybe too much—in a sales message.
- Why, in a world driven by data and demographics, empathy and psychology are actually the stronger tools for real connection.
- The full ecosystem of a humane sales process—and how things like sales pages, nurture emails, and gentle follow-ups all weave together.
Join us for the upcoming Collab Workshop on May 7th where we open our community, the Humane Marketing Circle to the public, for a small donation.
Rachel’s Resources
Sarah’s Resources
(FREE) Sarah’s One Page Marketing Plan
(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto
(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course
Marketing Like We’re Human – Sarah’s book
Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course
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Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com
Thanks for listening!
After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There’s no opt-in. Just an instant download.
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Warmly,
Sarah
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The Science of Buying
Speaker 0: hi, rachel. it’s good to have you back, returning guest to the humane marketing podcast. welcome.
Speaker 1: thank you. thank you. i’m so excited to be back. i always love, uh, repeat podcasts in general, but especially talking with you.
Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. it’s it’s really good when you get to know one another. right. like, kind of kind of on a deeper level. i think the conversations are are different. yeah.
Speaker 1: yeah. everybody gets to, like, drop their marketing face and just have a a human to human conversation.
Speaker 0: exactly. yeah. so we decided to do another collab workshop. uh, you’ve been in the community before and you’re i’m excited to have you back. and this time, we’re gonna talk about the science of buying. right? so from the buyer’s perspective, uh, more so from the seller’s perspective, but understanding what’s going on in the buyer’s head so that we can then, you know, cater to that and then not in a manipulative way, of course, but just like in an empathy kind of way. it’s like, oh, okay. i know what’s going on in their heads so that i can write the sales page, the emails. so that’s kind of like what we’re gonna be talking about. so you have looked at this, uh, more deeply and also kind of like the neuroscience and psychology, uh, behind this idea of, well, what’s going on in the buyer’s head. um, obviously, there’s all these tactics out there that are based on neuroscience. i’m pretty sure that’s not what you’re gonna tell us to do, but, um, yeah, i i’d love to hear your thoughts on all of that.
Speaker 1: yeah. well, i you know, you’re correct. i don’t have seven steps to, you know, manipulate people using their brains because i think that’s based on such a false understanding of how humans actually work. and this may sound like a slight digression, but just to give you the understanding of where i’m coming from psychologically with this, a lot of those tactics are based on a school of psychology and understanding of the human, uh, mind called behaviorism. so if you ever thought about, like, bf skinner and pavlov, that’s behaviorism. right? it’s like, oh, we push the button and that makes the thing happen and then we get the outcome. that works on a small scale with humans in limited conditional circumstances. but what the opposing school of that, which is called humanism, has found is that humans are driven by their will. we each have our free will. we decide things, and that’s how we recreate things, and we bring, um, a lot of chaos actually to the sales process because we’re human. and you can never just set up the internet atm where it’s like, well, i put in input a and i get out output b because there’s a human involved and you never know what’s gonna happen.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. i like that. is it actually called humanism? that’s that’s a term for it. uh, that makes so much sense. yes. so so yeah. what are some of these strategies or or things that you have learned and that you feel like, you know, that feels good rather than, yeah, we’re just abusing, uh, neuroscience and using it in in our favor?
Speaker 1: right. yeah. it’s i’ve never been a fan of, uh, lab rat tactics. you know? well, it’s, oh, let’s, like, poke them and see what happens. that just doesn’t feel good to me, and it’s also not really effective. so, um, the main things that i remind people when i’m teaching this are that you don’t have to be a mind reader to understand what someone’s going through in a sales process because you’re a person too. we all kind of go through the same phases, which is i have a problem. maybe i realize that. maybe i don’t realize it. maybe i don’t even know what the problem is, but i’m like, uh, like, just i’m in discomfort or, like, something’s not working. i need to get somewhere else than where i am now. then we tend to go through a period of exploration. right? what do i actually want? do i know? i don’t know. maybe i could find out. i’ll try this thing. i’ll try that thing. and then finally, we find something where we’re like, okay. i’m pretty sure that’s gonna be the thing or it’s at least worth a try. should i do it? and then we go through this period of having to convince ourselves. mhmm. and that’s where the opportunity is with sales pages and, um, lesser nurture campaigns. those come a little bit before. but people usually focus on that, like, oh, do i buy it or do i not area when they come to sales pages and the whole conversation is a huge part of it.
Speaker 0: i like that. the conversation is a huge part of it. so, essentially, what you’re saying is, like, the sales page should feel like a conversation addressing these thoughts that go through the buyer’s head. right? uh, that’s that’s that’s good. um, so so you talk about this magic equation, uh, for sales. uh, maybe, uh, i know we’re gonna go more deeply into it in the workshop, but maybe you could just kind of give us a sneak preview of of what that is. what’s the magic equation for sales?
Speaker 1: oh, i was so excited when i finally was able to articulate this. so for a sale to happen, you have to get the right thing in front of the right person at the right time and in the right way. and if any one of those factors is off, the sale doesn’t happen.
Speaker 0: and i saw your linkedin post on that, and i was like, yes. that’s it. exactly. yeah. go ahead.
Speaker 1: why, um, well, that’s why people get so i think they take so much, uh, responsibility on themselves with sales, and they try to control these factors that they really can’t control because, like, you can’t control when someone’s going to encounter your thing. you can’t control the way in which they encounter it. you can make the best thing you can, and you can understand whoever your ideal person is. like, you’ve got the most control over those two factors, but you have no control over the other two. and so people get so, like, wrapped up in this idea of, oh, i’m bad at marketing or, oh, i’m bad at sales because i can’t control the flow of time. and when you say it like that, it’s like, well, of course, that’s a bit silly. but so much marketing advice is predicated on, like, well, no, you should just, like, control these things. how, how are you supposed to do that?
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. it’s so good. and it reminds me of, um, something i talk about in the selling, like we’re human book. i, uh, i think i make the point of, uh, the, the, the idea that more sales calls does not equal more sales necessarily. because if your, like, intake form, for example, is not clear or your marketing is not good, then you can talk to tons of people. but if they’re not at the right point in time, like the point you’re making, well, then you’re basically just i guess you’re telling yourself i’m busy. i’m selling. you know? but then you’re gonna be disappointed because you’re not making the sales because people are just not at that readiness point to to actually buy. um, i feel there’s a lot of pressure to, you know, do all these sales calls and then and then obviously they become pushy because you feel like, oh my god, i’m so exhausted after 10 sales calls and nobody buys. and then you try to, you know, get more and more pushy. uh, but but yeah. it’s the opposite of of humane selling for sure.
Speaker 1: yeah. that equation. right? that’s not humane to you as the person who’s doing selling either. and, like, i really love this metaphor of the conversation because if there’s a conversation where one person is just monologuing at you, like, what do you naturally physically do? you know, when that guy in the bar comes up to you, you’re like, um. but and that’s what happens with marketing. but if you can turn this around and it becomes a conversation, you can create situations in which you don’t have to to encounter people at, like, their right moment because they already know you. and so when the moment’s right, they come and find you. they lean in towards you, and you don’t have to try and stress out about being everywhere all the time because, you know, they know how to get to you.
Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. yeah. it it reminds me of another post i just saw, uh, on linkedin about, you know, the right now, things are kinda tough with the economy the way it is and talk about recession. and so people get, you know, they they have the scarcity mindset and everybody feels like, well, i should be selling more. but right now, it’s probably not the time to sell more, but it is the time to build the trust for future sales and keep being visible. and so, yeah, these conversations to build those in and to into let’s talk a little bit about email marketing as well, because that’s also part of of the nurturing. right? so so how can we bring more of these conversations into, yes, the sales copy, but also the emails, for example?
Speaker 1: yeah. well, i love i love how you’ve laid these phases out. right? because we’ll see people, and you and i have both been around business and not long enough to see how that this will happen, is that the people who are showing up right now are the ones that when things do turn, they’re going to be absolutely inundated with business. and then everybody else is like, oh, wait. i gotta get my emails going. so this is a really good time to get nurture campaigns and other conversations like that going.
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: and to answer your question about, you know, how we incorporate that, i think people have this idea of what a nurture campaign is that’s based um, in the mid aughts. like, it’s very 02/2008 to very 02/2009. it’s like, it’s seven emails. and the first one is like, oh my god. you’re here. and the second one is like, did you download the thing yet? and then you work up to a sale. right? it’s so boring. i hate it so much. i’m seeing a thousand of them. they all are, like, ai generated now. so i invite people to reframe what a nurture campaign is is just it’s creating instances for someone to know you over and over again. it’s kind of like making it to where you run into each other at the coffee shop every morning, and then you’re like, oh, yeah. i know her. so it can be whatever you want it to be. so for instance, in my other business that i do with solve a pet triple diamond, we actually have a repulsion campaign, an anti nurture campaign where we write five emails to our unideal clients. and it’s funny, and there’s the haiku, and we’re like, absolutely not. we even have a song in it. and that’s showing who we are instead of being like, we’re triple diamond and here are our values. it’s like, hey, we wrote a funny haiku about how much we hate elon. you wanna join? that shows you who we are.
Speaker 0: yeah. i talk about the worldview all the time. like, show your worldview, show what your stand what you stand for. and that’s a great example. people wanna stay away for from politics. but frankly, right now, like, please, you know, it’s no longer the time for business as usual. so, uh, yeah, address politics because clearly, you’re you’re, yeah, you’re you’re gonna resonate with the people who who stand for the same things. right? so yeah. we just actually had the the last workshop was about email marketing and and, yeah, she she she basically said the same thing, like or or we had this discussion also, like, what’s with the term nurturing anyway? like, people actually said, well, i don’t feel nurtured or this is not what nurturing is. right? so, yeah, just kind of understanding that people don’t sign up to an email list to feel like to get nurtured. you know, we should we usually sure, like, see for nurturing someone somewhere else. but, um, it’s just good to yeah. think about, well, how do people feel when they sign up to something? and how would you feel, uh, when you sign up to to an email list as well and and just apply the same thing?
Speaker 1: and how, like, how do you want them to feel? like, we with our particular campaign, we want them to feel amused and seen and, like, somebody is, like, taking a stand. with other future campaigns, you might want someone to feel, uh, educated. that’s another really popular one. you need to, like, bring them through a journey of learning something. so it doesn’t have to be this, like, extremely transparent build up to a sale of, like, okay. i’m gonna give you three little, like, gifts, and then you’re gonna wanna work with me. like, no. it’s thinking about, like, what kind of relationship do you want? what kind of party are we throwing here? how do you want them to feel?
Speaker 0: yeah. and all of that is is part of the trust building. right?
Speaker 1: yeah. that’s
Speaker 0: that’s what we’re doing. another thing you talk about is is data and demographics and why psychology, uh, or, um, what are they called? psychographics are much more important than just, you know, the, yeah, the demographics of your ideal client. so talk to us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: oh, this is one of my favorite soapboxes. so when people started teaching the concept of a client avatar, they took that from traditional mass marketing and then took, like, two little tiny facets of it and taught those and ignored the rest of it. so people think that what you need to learn about them is like, okay. well, your audience is women and they’re between the ages of 35 and 50. uh, they are married and college educated and they like cats. that’s not an avatar. that’s an imaginary friend, and that doesn’t tell you anything about the person. so those are their demographics. their psychographics are how they feel about things and why they feel that way. because you can take people who have extremely similar demographic profiles who have completely different psychographics. and if you try to market to them in the same way, they’re probably both going to be turned off because you’re just not going to really speak to what either one of them cares about.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. it’s it’s such a huge difference. and then in my marketing, like, we’re human program, people are always surprised when i come back with, you know, the the p p of people where we go into the ideal client. a lot of them say, oh, i’ve already worked on that. and i’m like, yeah, but you haven’t worked on it like this. yeah. yeah. we have this. and that’s why people are also kind of scared of defining their niche because they feel like, oh, i have to just kind of like have a niche. and, and, you know, usually it’s demographic based. it’s like, i have to only work with women between this and this age. no, you don’t. the minute you bring in your worldview or the psychology of your ideal client, then it opens up. it’s like it’s based on resonance. because if you put out your worldview into your marketing, then it will only resonate with the, with this ideal client. doesn’t matter what gender they are, what age, what race doesn’t none of that matters. right?
Speaker 1: yeah. yeah.
Speaker 0: it’s it’s it’s such an important difference. and i i really hope, like, the new kind of marketing people are that’s what they’re teaching. i don’t know. you’re more involved still and and and and you’re saying that there there’s still people out there teaching demographics?
Speaker 1: yeah. it’s find your niche. it’s you want to be the something for this tiny little subset of people. but that’s created this situation in which people are getting into, like, crazy tiny niches because they wanna be different, and that just doesn’t do anything for you.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. what about, um, you know, kind of like if we if we go back to the signs of buying. so from the the buyer’s perspective, what other things like, if we put ourselves into the head of the buyer, what are the things maybe also if we compare it to ten years ago, how do you think the buyers, um, consciousness and intellect and, you know, the decision making has changed compared to ten years ago maybe.
Speaker 1: so i think that humans are humans, and they’re always like, decision making in and of itself, the process is still gonna be the same. you know, we go through this period of, like, there’s something wrong. i wanna fix it. what do i do? how do i convince myself i’ve made a good decision? how do i feel about this? all of that. but i think sales cycles in general are taking longer right now because people are extremely tired. there is so much coming at them all the time. there’s no off ever for most people unless they are creating it for themselves. and there’s, you know, a pervasive sense of just pessimism and fear and uncertainty. and so i think that means our job as sellers and marketers is to acknowledge that and be honest about it and not try to just be like, yeah. but if you buy my ninety day course, everything will be fine because that’s just not true. but you can also create the sense of, like, you know what? i get this. you’re scared. and also, we can move over here and we can we can fix this one thing. we can’t fix the world, but i can fix this one problem you have.
Speaker 0: yeah. i really like that. so so there’s transparency, but there’s still also hope and and and being very honest to say, hey, yes. i can promise you, you know, 10 new clients after going through this program. but what i do know that it will fix is this specific thing. yeah. i agree with that because i think i think, yeah, we can’t just pretend, you know, it’s not uncertain right now, and we don’t know where where it’s going. we have to treat our clients as smart conscious consumers or or buyers. and and so i think that’s super, super important to come over with transparency, but at the same time, you know, knowledgeable and and also, yeah, confident in our offering. so it’s kind of like this blend of, uh, or yeah. of of both things.
Speaker 1: yeah. and i think i love how you phrase that, the knowledgeable and confident in the offering. and i think that’s so important because what also happens during these times is people, unfortunately, will sometimes jump on a disaster as a marketing trend, and then they use it as this, like, things are so bad. oh my god. we gotta fix it right now. i know things are terrible. and that doesn’t help anyone. all that does is add more chaos and fear into the atmosphere. and it’s manipulative and gross, you know, to try and profit off of the general fear that is going around right now. it doesn’t last. and that’s you get a lot of churn that way, but you do not get long term sales. and, also, you just kinda look like a jerk.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. uh, and i like the last thing you just said is, like, it will give you you will sell fast, uh, for those who are like, oh, yeah. i’m really scared. okay. i’m gonna buy this thing, and it’ll fix all my problems. but then, you know, two months later, they’ll one, they won’t do the work, um, because they don’t have the confidence in themselves. and then two, either they’ll if it’s a long term, i don’t know, a membership or something like that, well, they’ll probably check out again or, uh, or you’ll you won’t get them the results. and then that’s that’s never good either to have a client who who doesn’t get the results. right? so, yeah, it’s, uh, it you know, selling is is always a bit of a tricky thing, but i think especially in in in in a downturn economy, it’s even it’s it’s even more tricky. and i think also the the thing you said that people are tired. so what does that mean? like, i was just thinking if people are tired and we come with our, you know, long sales page, long emails, uh, you think we need to adjust our copy a little bit, make it shorter? like, is is that something you would do?
Speaker 1: uh, it depends on the person and the offer. so the thing that i’m finding most effective in terms of tactics or, actually, let me rephrase that. the the key factor that i’m seeing in sales right now is what people’s friends say. so if you can create a situation in which they’re gonna go to the voxer chat or their whatsapp chat or whatever and be like, okay. rachel allen, how do we feel? and they’re like, oh, yeah. she’s solid. that’s what you want, and that’s how people are buying right now. so if you create that kind of situation, um, that’s what you want. in terms of length of sales pages and, like, how you engage with people, it depends on your audience. um, some people are really into video right now, especially short form video because they’re acclimated to tiktok, and that just works really well for their brain. other people are, like, going you’ll see this, like, they’re going to substack. right? and so they want these, like, long things. so i think it comes back to knowing your audience. but in general, the sort of equation that i give people for writing copy is the heavier the cognitive or financial lift, the longer the copy should be.
Speaker 0: oh, that’s interesting. yeah. so so i think in the workshop, you’ll also talk about the faqs at the end. right? so, actually, yeah, the bigger the investment, the more i’m gonna want to know upfront. okay. what are what is all the fine print? what am i getting? like yeah. at least i always know that for my audience is, like, they they they like that there’s a lot of info on that page. they might not read it all, but, uh, you know, it’s there. and so, yeah, the faq is is definitely an important piece. and and, of course, if it’s only, like, a very small amount, then, yeah, maybe shorter is is better. but, again, you need to know your audience and and and understand what’s going on in their heads.
Speaker 1: right. yeah. it’s an exercise in empathy. it’s thinking, like, what do i want? what would i want if i were signing up for this? and if you’re working with faqs especially, the types of questions you choose can really show your audience that you care about them and you understand them. because if you’re answering questions they don’t have, like, who cares? it might make feel like, oh, this isn’t for me. but if you can answer those questions that they have themselves or, like, they get to the bottom of the sales page and they’re like, oh, i would do this, but if you can address that, you’ve got the sale.
Speaker 0: right. yeah. yeah. it’s kinda like the you know, what you were saying, the the email series to, uh, a non ideal client. it’s almost like if you formulate the faqs in a way that addresses also, you know, this is not for you if right then it kind of reconfirms that. oh, yeah. no. uh, this is actually for me when they get to the bottom of the page.
Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. and if you can frame that in such a way where you’re talking about the way they think about who they don’t wanna be, you know, then they’ll be like, oh, okay. well, like, i’m definitely not that kind of person, so this is for me. and they feel a sense of belonging, and they feel cared for and seen.
Speaker 0: yeah. i wanna come back to the idea that you shared before that it matters what other people or or friends think of us. and and that and this is, yeah, really, really important. it taps into collaboration with other, uh, with other people, what you’re doing with apache, what we’re doing right here. right? it’s kind of like this putting my hand in the fire and saying, yes. uh, you know, i trust rachel. she’s aligned with our values. i wanna bring her into the community. i want you to buy her stuff. um, so this kind of partnership, uh, is really, really key. and it it i still don’t see it often enough. like, uh, p of partnership is the seventh p of humane marketing. but people feel like, especially beginning entrepreneurs, they have a hard time because they they kind of lack a bit of confidence. they don’t have a, you know, a really built out offering yet. um, so is there anything that you would suggest where they can start, you know, creating more partnerships with with others?
Speaker 1: i think, uh, it’s just being as generous as you can, um, you know, while still, of course, taking care of yourself. but the best partnerships i’ve ever had, they even though i’ve never met these people, you know, they they live on the internet, uh, for me. but it feels like i’ll be stepping into their kitchen and being like, oh, let me tell you that sales page for you or like, oh, and they’ll do that for me. right? like, pepsi will be like, oh, you know that logo? let’s change it a little bit. so it’s these these micro, um, i guess, interactions or encounters where people are showing their values, they’re demonstrating them, and they’re being really generous. and there’s no, like, endgame. right? it’s not that i’m secretly, you know, editing people’s copy to build up to, like, oh, but then they will hire me. i don’t care. it’s fun for me. it’s easy. it takes me absolutely no time whatsoever, and it really helps somebody. and, eventually, maybe we’ll work together. or what’s much more likely and what tends to happen is they send their friends to me, and that’s great too.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. exactly. not have that agenda of thinking, oh, she’s gonna hire me. no. but who knows?
Speaker 1: who knows? right. yeah. that up there and then something, like, something good comes back more often than not.
Speaker 0: yeah. amazing. yeah. great. well, yeah, like i said, i i look forward to having you back in the in the community for this workshop. do you wanna give us a little sneak preview of what we’re gonna build on this content, of course, but any anything you’d like to share, what we’re gonna be talking about during that workshop?
Speaker 1: yeah. well, we’ll be talking about the psychology of buying and selling, and then we’ll talk we’ll go into some specifics of how that can look in different settings. so for instance, in a sales page, in a nurture campaign. and by the end, you’ll have this matrix like view of seeing how the psychology of buying and selling can play into any copy and content that you do. so when you read something, you’ll be like, that’s what they’re doing or that’s what i need to do. and i love teaching like that because now it’s not like, oh, here’s my sales page template. go and use it until everybody gets bored. it’s no. you understand buying. you understand selling, and you can use those principles to form whatever you need to form that’s a fit for you, your offer, and your audience.
Speaker 0: yeah. i can’t wait. and then if it’s anything like the pitching workshop we did, it’s very hands on. right? like, we we really get to practice this, which is, um, yeah, it’s always the best way to learn. so can’t wait to have you in the community. so if anybody wants to join us for this workshop, it’s on may 2. and, uh, you can find out all about it at humane.marketing/workshop. we open the community to the public for a small donation, and rachel and i would love to see you there. please also do share rachel where people can find you find out you have a i don’t know. it might be too late. can’t remember when this, uh, podcast goes out, but you have other workshops also available on your site that, um, i’d love for you to mention.
Speaker 1: yeah. uh, i’m very easy to find on the internet. so my website is boltfromthebluecopywriting.com. you can email me at hello@boltfromthebluecopywriting.com, and i will email you back. um, and on my website, like sarah said, you can find different workshops. i teach one free workshop a month, uh, in april, depending on where this when this airs. it’s going to be the internet’s favorite bio workshop, how to write a bio that doesn’t make you sound boring, braggy, or like you have bad boundaries. and i believe i’m teaching the pitching workshop that i taught in the community, uh, in may, like, not for the community. and then after that, we’ve got positioning and something else. but, yeah, it’s all on the website.
Speaker 0: cool. yeah. highly recommend them. and, uh, yeah, please join us for the the workshop in the community on may 2. wonderful. thanks so much, uh, rachel. i always appreciate talking to you. always learn something new. maybe, uh, last question. where do you do you see any new developments? like, given that all this ai is coming in, like, what’s gonna make us stand out from the human, uh, side of things?
Speaker 1: yeah. well, as i’ve been saying on the internet for, i don’t know, forever, human is the only move left. moments like this, whether it’s ai, whether it’s, you know, the seo update internet apocalypses that come upon us, they’re filters and opportunities. and who rises up is whoever is able to be most human and most themselves and most in relationship with the people around them, and that’s just how it is. the tools, the tools, the tool. it’s gonna stop being shiny after a while. yes. it has absolutely changed the way we work, but it’s still us humans, people doing the work together. and so the more you can show up as you as human, the better you’re gonna be.
Speaker 0: yeah. it’s all it’s all on relationships. that’s, you know, that’s that’s how we sell as well. it’s really like, have we spent the time building the relationship even if we never see them, but they often feel like they know us because they’ve been reading our emails or substacks or linkedin posts. so it all matters. yeah. amazing. thanks so much.
Speaker 1: yeah. see you soon.
