Today we’re going to talk about my new book ‘Selling Like We’re Human’. I think of it as the little sister of ‘Marketing Like We’re Human’. They go hand in hand.
Honestly, this was a very different book to write for me. I wrote it because I realized it’s what my audience wants. I thought they wanted marketing. But in fact, they wanted to sell. What they needed to get to selling was more humane marketing. So once I accepted and gave myself permission to write a very different kind of selling book, that’s when I started to love the idea. But I didn’t want to write it alone either so I asked in my Humane Marketing Circle who’d be interested in getting together in a Gentle Sales lab to talk about the content of this book. And luckily a group of lovely ladies showed up. Together we defined what needed to be covered, and then I sat down and wrote it.
In today’s episode, I asked Andrina Tisi, a friend and former client, to take over the mic and ask me some questions about the book.
I hope you’ll enjoy this conversation. And if you have any questions you’d like me to answer, please leave me a voicemail here.
To get your copy of the new Selling Like You’re Human book go to HERE. You can also first download a free chapter to see if it resonates."More sales conversations doesn't mean more clients. More ready clients mean more sales. But that's not the same thing." -Sarah Santacroce @sarahsantacroce #humanemarketing #sellinglikeyourehuman Click To Tweet
In this episode, you’ll learn about the new “Selling Like We’re Human” book and…
- The different kind of sales path that we can offer our clients
- Why more sales conversations don’t equal more sales
- The inner work we need to do to sell successfully
- The outdated sales funnel that is all over the selling programs
- and so much more.
Marketing Like We’re Human – Sarah’s book
Email Sarah at email@example.com
Thanks for listening!
After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There’s no opt-in. Just an instant download.
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Imperfect Transcript of the show
[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello? Andrena I’m so glad to be here with you. I was, we were confused for a second. Do I start? Do you start, but I guess it’s still my podcasts, so I’m starting, but I’m going to hand over the mic to you in just a minute. Because you’re going to interview me today. I really thought, well, who could I ask?
[00:00:24] Who would I love to hang out with to do this you know, kind of cause as you know, as introverts, self-promotion yuck, not her favorite thing to do, but so I really wanted it to not sound like an infomercial where. So you don’t talk about my book for an hour. I saw it was like, oh, I could ask entry because you know, she’s a good friend, a former client and also a podcaster.
[00:00:51] So, yay. So here we are. I’m so excited.
[00:00:55] Andrina: So I’m excited to, and of course it’s a big honor and I’m excited. So let’s
[00:01:02] Sarah: start, let’s
[00:01:03] Andrina: do it. Okay. So. You know, one, one of the big question I think is, is which goes maybe quite, quite deep is that, and I I’ve been in this situation that because I’ve worked in sales for hotels and, you know, sales or selling is so uncomfortable for so many of us.
[00:01:29] And why is. Yeah.
[00:01:33] Sarah: There’s, there’s a lot of things that I could share here. I think the most important thing is that we. Have been taught to sell in a certain way. And so it’s just like the minute you say the word selling, you kind of feel it in your body, you start to tense up and you’re like, ah, don’t like it.
[00:01:57] And the reason is that the way we’ve been taught to sell is just like, that’s how we think of selling and that’s what doesn’t feel good. It feels like it. It’s something that we need to do in order to convince someone who’s not convinced yet. So it feels like a very pushing hard energy that. You know, might work for some people.
[00:02:25] I’m kind of putting people into boxes again here, but the introverts versus the extroverts, maybe you know, extroverts love to sell because it’s like, yeah, that’s where they’re good. They’re good at talking. And you know, it’s all this outgoing energy where introverts they’re like, oh my God, I have to do what I have to like pitch and convince.
[00:02:45] And, and that’s what we’ve been taught. And so. That doesn’t feel good aside. I think that is the, the main thing. Then we, of course we could talk about, you know, confidence and other things that maybe contribute to not feeling good at selling. But the main thing is, is I think what we see out there. That’s what doesn’t feel good to us.
[00:03:09] So we just kind of have this phobia when it comes to selling the minute we think of selling, we’re like, oh no, I don’t want to do that. So I think that’s the, I
[00:03:20] Andrina: think that’s, that’s a really good point that then, you know, this leads me a little bit into the next, the next question. Which is, you know, if we, if we don’t want to do it because we don’t like it, or we are not comfortable with that, we of course also not going to do it.
[00:03:35] And then maybe we feel like we’re not good at it. So, you know, it’s kind of like a little bit of a vicious circle, maybe two. And then of course in many areas of your life, maybe even feel like, you know, the more I learn something the better I’m going to get and therefore the bigger the results I’m going to get.
[00:03:52] And. So is this the same thing in selling? Can we actually learn to get better at selling? And if so, how, or is that not like part of. The selling special in your
[00:04:07] Sarah: types of selling. I love the question when you, cause you’re like framing it without really wanting to frame it, but no, it’s exactly. It’s exactly what I thought.
[00:04:17] I, you know, that’s how you do it. You have to just learn the techniques and so on my computer. I wrote in the book, how many sales programs I have on my computer over the years, all of these, you know, sales programs. And I also joke about, you know, thinking that selling is actually an easy sell. So if you have a program about selling, well, that’s an easy sell because that’s what people want to learn more about.
[00:04:46] Right. And so. Point here is that after going through all these programs and you know, following all these coaches and gurus and templates and all of that, I still didn’t feel like I now enjoy selling. In fact the opening line of the book is like, I hate selling, you know, it’s not that I could, even now, after having written the book, I can’t say, oh you know, you can read this booking.
[00:05:14] And I love selling that. Would not be true for most people. I think it’s, it’s just a reframe, hopefully that the book gives you, it helps you kind of think about selling in a different way, but that’s not gonna, that’s not gonna mean that you’re going to absolutely just love selling. And so to answer your question.
[00:05:35] I don’t think it has to do with doing more. I have, I think it has to do to really do, would changing your mindset, changing your perspective about selling and accepting. That this is part of running a business. And that it’s actually a beautiful thing. If you find humans who want to be in business with you, who want to buy from you, that’s the other thing.
[00:06:03] People want to buy things, you know, we all want to buy things. And so there needs to be that counter. Piece of someone who says, I want to sell something, but let’s have a human conversation around it instead of you know, yes, the person wants to buy something and then the other person is like, you gotta buy this because otherwise your life is going to end tomorrow or whatever.
[00:06:29] Like it needs to just kind of be calmed down a little so that both people can have a. A human conversation around this idea of yeah. Being in business together. So, no, I don’t think there’s more techniques that you necessarily need to learn. There is a reframe. That’s why I’m calling it also, you know, a revolution, a human humane selling revolution, because it’s not that the book is going to give you, you know, 10 more techniques and, and, you know, he human psychology based tricks and things like that.
[00:07:07] That’s not what this book is about. It’s about using what we know works in sales. But actually completely reframing it and not abusing it, but just bringing it up in this human conversation.
[00:07:25] Andrina: Yeah, I’m done. It really changes the perspective by being almost looking at it from a different angle. And that actually also ties in really nicely to that.
[00:07:35] I think you talk about this, the embassy worth is the perspective thinking. So instead of really what you just talked about, or can you maybe frame that or explain that a little bit more? What, what do you exactly
[00:07:48] Sarah: mean with them? Yeah, the difference between empathy and perspective taking a lot of times, we think that if we just use more empathy, Then that’s kind of what I’m talking about here in the conversation.
[00:08:05] You know, when we show empathy, empathy, what I also, and that’s kind of where the, the, the yin and the yang, the skin and the yang energy, right? As impasse or introverts are highly sensitive people. The empathy comes easy for. Where I’m bringing in the perspective taking is, is also kind of not just a feelings and the emotions, but also the, the brain, the, you know, get into your client’s head find out what they think.
[00:08:36] Not only what they feel. So this is not just a, you know, only a yin oriented way of approaching sales, where, you know, you kind of sit in your garden and manifest. It’s really based also in. In. Yeah, well, let’s figure out what works, but again, let’s not just use tricks and manipulation, but let’s really understand what’s going on in my client’s heart, but also in their heads.
[00:09:07] So, let me give any, it gives you an example. If someone you know wants to buy some, your services from you and they share where they are right now and what they’re struggling with. So on one hand, you’re gonna show empathy and making sure that this, that they understand that you, you get where they’re at and you feel their pain.
[00:09:30] It’s. It makes them feel good, but that’s not enough because then they don’t necessarily understand that you can help them. So where the perspective taking comes in is where you actually figure out their thoughts. So not just their emotions, but their thoughts so that you can kind of maybe help them with false beliefs.
[00:09:53] Okay. So if they’re so stuck, the emotions often take over. And so it’s just all emotions and you know, this is where I am and it’s not working. And it’s. You helped them kind of figure out and point out these limiting beliefs or just thoughts where they’re, they, they don’t see farther than their own little jar.
[00:10:16] And that’s what I mean by perspective taking. So it’s not just, yes, I hear you. And I understand but it’s like, What if you looked at it from this point of view, what if, you know, there was another option and not the, you know, silly imagine you know, you lying on a beach and, you know, money was rolling in.
[00:10:38] That’s usually what we were taught in sales is this magic wand scenario that, oh my God, I hate it so much. It’s just, it is manipulative because what we’ve been taught and there’s this term called gap selling. And again, I I’ve seen this in many books in courses. We’re taught that we’re, we’re supposed to show the ideal client, the gap, the giant gap between where they are now and where they want to go.
[00:11:11] And so we first take them down really deep into their problems and show them all their pain and suffering. And how does that affect your family? And, oh my God, is this so horrible? And then. You know, then you switch and then you show them this ideal life and where money comes in overnight and things like that.
[00:11:35] And that’s just that doesn’t feel good. That’s manipulative. And to me, it doesn’t actually want the best for the client necessarily. I think those techniques are really well, they’re capitalistic. They’re just there to get you to the safe. But they don’t necessarily want the best for your client, but if you use the empathy and as well, the perspective taking without exaggerating any magic scenarios, then you still help your clients.
[00:12:10] See, you know, where they’re at. And how they could change that perspective and see you know something better, how they can get out of that situation. So I hope that kind of explains that empathy versus perspective taking.
[00:12:27] Andrina: Yeah. It’s, I mean, for me, the word possibility comes in into my mind, right then like there’s different aspects and, you know, we all have, you know, our.
[00:12:38] Our mind, our brain and our heart, them to, to merged, I mean, in a way, or to have them, you know, work together, you know, this is really, really powerful. And I think when we can, you know, support somebody in the process that, of course that’s I think that’s where your gift comes in. Right. And what I also.
[00:12:58] But I’m also curious about, and I wonder if that goes into a little bit of that aspect as well. You also describe your book as a blend of practical real-world marketing applications and personal development to, so I think the person development aspect in, you know, I’m going to say a marketing or a sales focus may be a little bit surprising for some people So I would like to hear a little bit from you, and I think you touched on it in your answer just now about that, that self-sabotaging and the personal development aspect, I think are very close, but maybe you can elaborate a little bit for you where they yeah.
[00:13:39] Where they come together. Yeah,
[00:13:41] Sarah: yeah, no, that that’s exactly. I think that’s the, the, the deep work that needs to happen first and. That’s not usually in a sales book, right? A sales book, you go straight to the doing, and this is how it’s done. And here are the scripts. And this is, you know, the five steps or seven steps where my book is structured, similar to the marketing, like we’re human book, the selling like we’re human book is structured with three parts.
[00:14:13] First part being about being. So the being comes first, it comes forward before you ever do anything about selling. You have to first look at the being and, and so in there there’s things like, you know, your confidence. Yes. It is something in sales, I guess, that we often hear, you need to have more confidence.
[00:14:39] I tend to agree. I think mostly with that you don’t have to come over as, you know, super confident and kind of go into that. Almost like a power situation where you feel like you’re overpowering the client. That’s not what I’m talking about at all. Because you see that also kind of being demonstrated often on sales calls, I’ve been in where the minute you get on, they tell you, okay, we have 30 minutes.
[00:15:06] What can I do for you in these 30 minutes? And so it feels like. Oh, my God I’m being stressed and, you know, immediately tells you who’s in power and that’s not what I mean by confidence, by confidence. I really mean believing in your worth, believing in your value. And those things are different. First is worth your self-worth and really, really knowing that you are enough and worthy, even if you never make a sale anymore.
[00:15:37] Like you have no more clients, you have no sale. And you’re still worthy. You are still enough. And so that understanding is so key to then have these gentle sales conversations where you feel like any kind of outcome is good. If it’s a yes. Hilarious. It’s exciting if it’s a no, that’s fine too, you know, but you can’t get to that point unless you feel enough, even if you have never any sales anymore.
[00:16:11] So that in their work is just so, so important and it has to do with yeah. Your mindset. Another thing that I talk about is your sales energy. So really understanding this. Energy that, you know, it takes for you and that’s personal to each and everyone. How much energy do you want to give to the sales process?
[00:16:37] How you know, how much energy does it take out of you? And again, that’s different for introverts or highly sensitive people. It’s much more And they’re G draining, especially of course, if we add so much pressure on ourselves. So I’m hoping that with this selling, like we’re human, it’s less energy draining, but still it’s human conversations.
[00:16:59] And that takes out more energy for introverts than, than for extroverts. So just kind of knowing all of that. And then putting it into context with what we usually hear and in the sales conversation where it’s all about always be closing and you have to make at least 10 sales calls every week and just kind of sitting with that and realizing, well, actually, no, that doesn’t work for me.
[00:17:25] Because an important point I think I make in the, in the book is that it more sales conversations doesn’t mean more clients. Yeah, more ready. Clients means more sales. But that’s not the same thing. So you can spend all day long talking to random people on the internet and never get a sale. But if you only talk to, you know, 10 people who are ready.
[00:17:55] Well, most likely your sales comp conversions will be much higher because they have gone through your gentle sales path. They are ready by now and they just show up at your, you know, human conversation in the serene garden. We’ll talk about that in a little bit. And they’ll, they’ll just be like, yeah.
[00:18:16] How can we, when can we start?
[00:18:19] Andrina: Yeah. And I think for me, What I, what just comes to me in terms of energies also like the, the energy scarcity versus abundance.
[00:18:31] Sarah: Yeah, I think
[00:18:32] Andrina: when, oh yeah, I have to make all these sales calls and dah, dah, dah, dah. Right. But. You know, I’m here and that’s what I have to offer.
[00:18:41] Then I’m like in a, in a, in a open end, in an abundant kind of energy and not in this like grasping writing of course. That’s felt by, by the people around me.
[00:18:56] Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. Any kind of grasping pushy, needy energy people wanna run, you know, they’re like, nah, that doesn’t feel good.
[00:19:06] Andrina: You know, I know, I know.
[00:19:07] I run.
[00:19:10] Yeah. So two keywords that you mentioned that I want to kind of dive into a little bit deeper first is the sale path and or sales path. Sorry. And, you know, in the sales and marketing world, we, at one point, you know, the sales funnel compensating to play, and you talk about the sales path and also in there, there are signposts.
[00:19:34] So maybe. You can talk a little bit more about that.
[00:19:39] Sarah: Yeah. And so, so this picture that we all have of the sales funnel, well, it’s the typical funnel where there’s a lot of people at the top of the funnel and that’s how we talk, you know, how, how many people you have top funnel, middle funnel. And so it really is actually quite worrisome.
[00:19:59] If you think about it, That’s just a regular sales talk. So we have lots of people coming in at the top, and then we want to squeeze them all into the bottom of the funnel. And then the idea is that, you know, whoever is leftover at the bottom of the funnel, those are the ones you’re you’re then talking to, and I guess converting into sales.
[00:20:24] I think you and I can agree that that picture is just not very humane at all. It actually reminds me some kind of like slaughterhouse or some gross, gross image. So definitely not what we want to do with humane selling. So the, the alternative then is the, is a gentle sales path. And there you really just picture a past with different options where, you know, you can go left, you can go, right.
[00:20:56] You can you know, exit. Kind of like labyrinth of paths because you’re free, you have the choice to the client is empowered and and then every now and then you have a little bench under a tree and that’s the signposts and that’s where your clients get to rest and, you know, just kind of absorb and and you give them some content in these sites.
[00:21:21] Do you know, get to know you better to find out who you are and to then make a decision. Do I want to go further on this on this path or, yeah, maybe that’s not for me. I’d rather, you know, find another path and so off you go. So that’s the idea of the gentle sales path and the signposts there. Like I said, dressing places and they are content that help your ideal clients.
[00:21:48] Yeah, you get further into their journey so that they, when they are ready. To enter your serene garden, biggest the past leads to the serene garden. And so when they’re ready to enter the serene garden and have sit down with you and have a cup of tea and have that gentle sales conversation, well, by then they already feel like they know you, they know what you stand for, they know your values, they know your offering.
[00:22:17] And, and, and so it just. Natural and they’re feeling, it feels like for you as the person who sells you don’t have to do any pushing or convincing none of that, because it just, it’s a natural, organic kind of way to get to know you. And some ideas for signposts could be podcast ebook any other kind of free giveaways, meditations, anything that just kind of gets.
[00:22:45] To know who you are and what you’re offering.
[00:22:50] Andrina: Some it’s more sharing them selling yeah. Factory. I love the image of the serene garden.
[00:23:01] Sarah: So beautiful. Yeah. We came up with that. So, so the, the book was really started as a collaborative project with some members of the humane marketing circle. I, you know, I said, okay I’m going to write the sales book, but I can’t do it alone.
[00:23:18] So who’s with me who helps me come up with the content so that I know what. My people need in this book about selling. And so together, we came up with the content and then I sat down and wrote the book. And so one of these metaphors that we always kept coming back to was this idea of the garden. And also of course, you know, it’s used before, but it’s like this idea of nurturing.
[00:23:46] And, and what you’re doing here is nurturing your, your clients. But then also what really appealed to me is having. This place where you feel safe and that’s again, where this, this being comes in. It’s like, this is your garden. You get to design it. You get to feel comfortable in it. You make the rules you let in who you want to let in.
[00:24:10] So that’s also the difference between this idea of, you know, always be closing, talk to as many people as you could. Because you always want to convert well in the serene garden, you only let people in who feel like a really good fit and they have gone through the signposts. So most likely they wouldn’t want to talk to you if they didn’t already know you and feel like you’re a good fit.
[00:24:37] So it’s probably just place where you feel serene. At ease and, and you can talk about difficult things like money and investments. And, and if there is rejection, you’re not going to feel like you have to now object these rejections. Because you’re, you’re just like, oh yeah, no, I understand. Well, let’s see if we can figure out another solution.
[00:25:00] And it’s just really like this idea of let’s find a way and let’s have a human conversation about.
[00:25:07] Andrina: Yeah, really good. I love it. So now of course, everybody wants to get the book.
[00:25:16] Sarah: Yeah. So,
[00:25:18] Andrina: so tell us about where we can get the.
[00:25:22] Sarah: Yes. So the book is now available on Amazon. So if you type in selling like we’re human you should find it.
[00:25:30] And also on my website, I have a beautifulPage@umaine.marketing for it slash book. Too, because you know that there’s book one, that’s called marketing, like we’re human. So this is book two. And if you want to know a little bit more, well, there’s another signpost. You can download your free chapter just to kind of get a, a feel for what this book is all about and how it’s going to feel reading it.
[00:25:59] But the I’m really. Happy with the feedback I have about 40 beta readers who who’ve given me lovely feedback, really making me feel that. Because I did struggle a bit with the idea to write a sales book. I’m like, yeah, but I hate selling. How could I be, you know, a phony and say that I’m going to write a sales book, but in the end I just really gave myself permission to write something so different that I feel.
[00:26:29] You know, the typical sales person can come and say, yeah, but this is not how selling works. Cause you just can’t compare it. There’s no comparison uni they, yeah. So, so it really feels good. And I feel like the right kind of people will resonate with the, the ideas I share.
[00:26:46] Andrina: Yeah. And I think that’s exactly the same energy as you we just talked about, right.
[00:26:50] It’s like sharing and the, the, you know, energy of, of, of abundance and that you have something to offer. Right. There’s the, the audience who stare that resonates with it. And I think, I mean, I know that there is. So is there anything else that you would like to share that we’ve not touched. Hmm,
[00:27:12] Sarah: let me think.
[00:27:14] I think, I think again, with the, with this book about selling, it’s a lot about permission. So if you, you know, just need permission to do selling your way. Then I think this book will really help you. I don’t write you know, prospective prescriptive books with how to, and, and, and all of that. It’s really, you make it, it’s an individual experience.
[00:27:40] And I, I think like everyone. Goes as deep as they need. And for some of you I noticed in the beta readers for some of some, for some of the readers, this is like, you know, it goes really deep because the minute we talk about money in the being, well, that can go really deep or, you know, you already have done your money work and.
[00:28:03] You’re comfortable selling, and then it’s just a permission again, to, you know, do it your way. The other thing I like about the book and the stories I share from, from different people in there is that it’s it’s. It gives you this confirmation that it’s possible. So if you’ve already been doing it that way, but you know, you’re like, yeah, but I just don’t know if this works.
[00:28:29] Then, then this book will tell you, yeah, this, this works. Tons of business owners who are doing it that way already. And, and it works. They have a great business. So it, I think it’s, it’s partly permission and partly confirmation and and of course always the revolution. So that’s, that’s really the core of it.
[00:28:54] It’s like, let’s, let’s change those business paradigm and let’s get away from the. The pushy and manipulative selling.
[00:29:04] Andrina: Thank you so much for sharing and thank you so much for having me poke your questions.
[00:29:10] Sarah: I love doing it. Thank you so much. Andrea for coming here and interviewing me for once. It’s a great pleasure and fun to be together.