Purpose and Profit and How To Maximize Both

Phil Preston

Today’s conversation fits under the 5th P, the P of Pricing. I’m talking to Phil Preston about how organizations can maximize purpose and profit. Phil is an Australian Keynote speaker, consultant, and author of the book ‘Connecting Profit with Purpose’. He helps people and organizations with strategies that amplify their impact many times over.

Phil left a corporate career overseeing billions of dollars of investments to help companies go beyond token or symbolic acts of charity to make a difference at scale whilst also improving performance. He’s worked with small-medium enterprises through to multi-national corporations and everything in between.

Based near Sydney in Australia, in his spare time he enjoys coffee, chocolate, and trail running!

"I think purpose is one of the most effective mechanisms in a business. If you want to stay in tune with what people want, you should align with something. " – @purposepreston @sarahsantacroce #humanemarketing Share on X

In this episode, you’ll learn about how organizations can maximize purpose and profit and…

  • The two types of purpose
  • How entrepreneurs can balance profit and purpose
  • How to spot ‘purposewashing’
  • How Gen Z thinks about purpose
  • The relation between purpose and storytelling
  • and much more!

Phil’s Resources

Phil’s Website

Download Phil’s Free “Purpose Ready” Guide

Connect with Phil on:



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(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We’re Human – Sarah’s book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com

Thanks for listening!

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Imperfect Transcript of the show

I will provide a transcript of the show whenever I can, but please be informed that this is non-edited, so far from perfect. On the positive side you might get a chuckle from reading it, because these robot transcripts are often quite funny 🙂

[00:00:00] Sarah: I feel so good to meet you.

[00:03:02] Phil: Hey, hi, Sarah. Great to be on your show. Yeah.

[00:03:05] Sarah: Thank you. Thank you for doing this. As I mentioned before, I heard you on Lisa Evans podcast business chats, is that right? That’s the title of her show

[00:03:16] Phil: and I know Lisa quite well.

[00:03:17] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I heard that, that. You know, other projects in common.

[00:03:22] So the reason I wanted to have you here is obviously to talk about purpose, but also it’s always good to bring in some other Australians you know, to have this mix of also perspective. I think it’s good to have. Kind of a wide range of people from all over the world. So welcome to this new version.

[00:03:43] I don’t can’t remember if I mentioned it, but I recently went through a rebranding. And so now the podcast is called humane marketing. So. Yeah, that’s what we’ll talk about, but mainly about you and did this work that you do with purpose and profit. So we’re going to dive right in but maybe before we do just quickly, you know who you are and yeah.

[00:04:10] What brought you to this work around.

[00:04:13] Phil: Yeah. Well, the very quick story is I was in the investment management industry for about 17 years and it got to a point where, you know, my job was paying well, it was exciting. It was challenging, but I was sort of frustrated that companies were seeing. Responsible business or CSR is the way that they made a difference.

[00:04:34] Whereas in fact, it was just something they did on the side to protect brand and reputation, risk by and large not every company, but for most that, that was why they were doing it. And at the same time I felt successful in life. And I was well feeling like I was on the verge of where success would take me and then realizing.

[00:04:54] You know, well, after this, once I’ve climbed this mountain, what’s next. And that’s when I sort of slipped into a midlife crisis because I couldn’t really answer that question of what’s life all about, and do I really want to stay in this industry for the next 20 years? And, and so I left the industry left behind a very stable, solid income for the rollercoaster ride that many of us lead as solopreneurs and you know, work in the gig economy.

[00:05:21] Change a thing. And when I went out, I, I didn’t really have a concrete idea, but I knew I wanted to help companies go beyond some of the more token and symbolic acts of charity that they do and help them really make a difference. And I guess that’s where profit and purpose come together because. If you want businesses or larger companies to really make a difference in care, you’ve got to link it to profitability.

[00:05:44] Sarah: Yeah, that, that is an interesting point. And I’m gonna come back to it, but first maybe explain the. Yeah, I heard you talk about saying that there’s two types of purposes. So why don’t you go into that?

[00:05:59] Phil: Yeah, look, there’s probably more than two, but I think the main types of purpose we think of is as an individual what, what is my purpose?

[00:06:06] And even within that, you know, we can have vastly different ideas. You know, some people think I’m on a mission to do something, to change the world for the better. And that’s great. Some people, you know, they might see their purpose. Bring up a family, making lots of money to support them. Other people might see purpose about just conforming the certain values and behaviors.

[00:06:25] So, you know, that conversation about personal purpose is a challenging one. And then you go into an organization or a business context and, you know, what’s purpose there. You know, is it giving your employees volunteering or fundraising opportunities? Is it about your brand sponsoring a charity or is it about doing something more strategic?

[00:06:46] So there’s lots of different ways. I think we talk about purpose, but fundamentally I bring it back personally at the personal and business level to say, what’s the benefit to society that you believe you have and that you’re creating. And, and for me, that’s, that’s the baseline I work with. And yeah, it seems to be something people are quite interested in it.

[00:07:07] Sarah: Yeah, it is. So for entrepreneurs you know, you just distinguished these two purposes and yet if we are the sole proprietor of our business, often I find that our own personal purpose then leads into the business purpose. In the end. That’s why we are in business. Most of the time at all, you know, we’re like, just like you, you’re like, you’ve seen something in the market and you saw that there’s something that needed to be changed.

[00:07:39] And so that became. Your purpose in life, but also in business. Is that fair to say?

[00:07:46] Phil: That’s fair to say. And the great thing about being a solopreneur is you are so connected to everything in your business. You know, you’re not sitting in a head office, you know, millions of miles away from what’s really going on.

[00:07:57] So that’s a positive. However, this challenge as you look for all of us, even if you look at social enterprises, which are not for-profit vehicles, but typically the commercial revenues make up most of their income and they have challenging decisions around, well, I’m balancing this. I need to be profitable and sustainable to keep my social enterprise going.

[00:08:20] And at the same time, I’m really focused on delivering something good to people or the environment. And those things will come into conflict even in. Social enterprise situation. So we face it as well. So, and we’ve gotta be aware of that and I think you’ve got. Pretty clear on, on where you’ve you tried off, so start and finish, and that’s not easy as we all know.

[00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This balancing between purpose and profit. Right. And, and you mentioned before that for big probably like huge organizations, it’s really the profit where you get them interested and the stakeholders where, where you get them interested in talking even about purpose. That is going to be the case going forward.

[00:09:03] I also heard you say social enterprise and I I recently said on another podcast, I’m like, well, right now we still call it a social enterprise, but I would love to see this term really turn into you know, We don’t have to distinguish anymore. It’s just like every enterprise is a social enterprise.

[00:09:26] So I’m curious whether you think that you know, big corporations, if it’s always going to be the carrot of the profit, that gets them to talk about purpose, or if eventually it’s just. That’s just normal that we talk about purpose, which maybe you can also bring up these is a 21 core values, you know, in the investing place where we’re actually purpose has a big role already.

[00:09:51] So talk to us about that.

[00:09:53] Phil: We’ll come. There’s a lot in that question. I agree with your premise that why distinguish one enterprise from another, because going forward, I believe no matter whether you’re for profit or not for profit, you have to have a really strong purpose and know what the benefit to society is.

[00:10:11] And many businesses, if we look at larger companies, they’ve come from, I guess, the perspective. Car manufacturer. Might’ve said we make cars and, but that’s an activity. That’s not actually a benefit to society. Not directly whereas if they went to we want to make provide sustainable transport solutions, then that sounds more like a societal benefit.

[00:10:31] So business big business in particular is grappling with this. And it sounds like it’s a, it’s a big story, but I think it’s one we all know well is that we’ve come from an environment where we’ve, we sorta plundered the earth to make money. And now that the earth is a very crowded and connected place and those resource limits are becoming real.

[00:10:52] I think that’s, what’s prompting a lot of rethink by big business. We can’t just keep doing this because people are now noticing. So we don’t have much of a choice. We’ve got to align ourselves with stakeholders being people and the natural environment planet in order to stay profitable and, and have a sustainable business.

[00:11:12] So it sounds like a little bit of a roundabout argument, but I believe it’s very powerful because coming back to the 21 factors, you alluded to. Pension funds are in Australia. We call them superannuation funds. They control a lot of the world’s capital. And the trustees of those funds are saying, well, we can’t just have S S pension funds can invest in companies that are plundering the planet, because that’s no good for our members in their retirement and their benefits down the track.

[00:11:41] So they’re, they’re realizing that they have to make change and that’s, what’s driving ESG, environmental, social, and governance. Analysis by investors and the number one factor out of the 21 key factors that are looked at in the ESG world. Number one on the list is purpose. Now, just to finish off this long-winded explanation, I think purpose is one of the most effective mechanisms in a business for an offensive and a defensive reason.

[00:12:10] So. If you want to stay in tune with what people want, you, you should align with something. They really need being a, being the purpose you’re striving to fulfill. So that will ensure your earnings will continue on in the future. And at the same time, if you are aligned with what people need, you’ve got less chance or less risk of blowing up and something going wrong from that side.

[00:12:32] So I think it’s like a risk management and a profit creation.

[00:12:37] Sarah: Yeah. I never thought of it that way.

[00:12:40] Phil: It’s interesting to

[00:12:42] Sarah: know that that was really good. Maybe to bring it back to, to the entrepreneur. It’s it’s yeah, I was just thinking, as you were speaking, You know, in marketing, I tell my people to really bring more of us to our marketing and that has to do with our values and our worldview.

[00:13:03] And obviously that also means our purpose or our past. So I really tell them to bring, you know, the stories like for in your case, you would tell that story of kind of, you know, burning out in the financial industry and then, you know, starting your own business. That would be a story to tell. What about the bigger businesses?

[00:13:26] What are some really good marketing campaigns that you’ve seen that are tied into the purpose and. Of course, then there’s also the greenwashing or the purpose washing or whatever washing that, you know, you can just tell all this is just a check you know, yes. We’ve mentioned our mission or purpose statements.

[00:13:48] So can you give us some examples?

[00:13:50] Phil: Yeah, it’s a great question. I’ll just finish off the solopreneur one from India, because I think it’s important that we yes, there’s a backstory. However, I would see my purpose in even I’m a one-person business with. Contracted assistance is to accelerate the purpose economy.

[00:14:05] I’m going to help executives and leaders navigate the purpose economy because I want to accelerate it. And the end goal, the vision is that we live in a really resilient and prosperous society where we have sort of collective prosperity. Oh, I, I think it’s, to be honest, it’s taken me a long time to get there, to figure that out.

[00:14:23] And if you’d asked me 10 years ago, I would have said, I’m a consultant. I’m a speaker, you know, which is a very different type of analogy when you come to.

[00:14:35] Sarah: I just add something in there

[00:14:36] Phil: before you move onto the business.

[00:14:41] Sarah: I sometimes refer to the 17 sustainable development goals and tell my entrepreneurs to, you know, look at them and see where or which one. Are important to them because clearly as an entrepreneur, maybe you’re a coach, you’re a consultant, you’re a virtual assistant. You’re like, I don’t see how, what I’m doing on a daily basis ties in to a bigger purpose, but just like you, maybe you’re kind of supporting.

[00:15:16] People who act then and make the bigger change. And that makes you part of that change. So sometimes I’m kind of looking at those SDGs is, is helpful for first of all.

[00:15:30] Phil: I agree. And I guess that’s where in the STG 17 zone, which is around partnering and building capability. And I think the unique thing we have is that because we’re service providers we often can see opportunities for our clients or their customers, and we can help them make those links.

[00:15:48] So that’s a position of power we have, and we have a different perspective, which is useful for them. Yeah.

[00:15:55] Sarah: You go with the bigger

[00:15:56] Phil: businesses. Well, if, when we we’ve purpose has done well, you actually don’t notice it that much. And that’s a really confronting idea for someone in marketing. I suspect. So, you know, the, let me try and explain why.

[00:16:12] We think of traditional, like purpose led brands. Like I can think of a well-known brand of nappies in this market in Australia and probably elsewhere that has a, that sponsors a children’s hospital founder. And that makes sense because there’s a connection there between the customer and the cause. So I get that and that, you know, would be a brand with purpose, but that is really about, I guess, you know, enhancing, enhancing the reputation of that brand.

[00:16:40] That is a sort of different conversation to what’s the purpose of the whole. That’s behind that brand because it has many brands. The whole company isn’t about supporting the children’s hospital foundation. So that bigger conversation around the whole company’s purpose is more one that is an internal one in some ways.

[00:16:59] It, it will need that purpose when they do inspire people to come and work for it and help them stay there. But the other part of it is understanding how they allocate resources. Internally within the company. So they understand, okay, if we’re delivering our purpose, we’ve we can do products, X, Y, and Z.

[00:17:17] And we understand that by helping our customers or helping the communities they’re in, we can see the return on that investment and we want to do more of it. So it’s very much around making those management decisions as to where. Put their focus. Now that’s not something a lot of people really want to hear because it’s not very sexy, but it’s just the reality because we’re now stepping into the core of the business rather than some of the more peripheral features of it.

[00:17:45] Right now, if you think about a company that might be closer to you than me which, which I, I love and talk about in my book is called CHR handsome. It’s a bio-science company. It was a rapid growth company. I think it was in fortunes, changed the world this last year or the year before. And it’s really, its whole reason for being is, is around purpose.

[00:18:07] And you know, using bio science to help gut. To help improve the longevity of food on shelves and to create alternatives to pesticides. So every thing that company does is aligned with the sustainable development goal. And I don’t think it needs to go out there explaining to everyone on a daily basis that it’s, that it’s doing purpose.

[00:18:29] Well, it just, it just is. So it’s, you know, that at the individual level, when it’s doing its specific products around, you know, pesticide or. They will have their own separate brands. And that’s probably where a marketing rep comes into that process. I don’t, I don’t profess to be an expert in marketing by the way.

[00:18:46] So someone else I’m sure can, can run with more of that. Yeah.

[00:18:52] Sarah: Sorry. Yeah, no, I, I find it interesting that you said, you know, the, the companies that do purpose well it’s almost like. You can’t see it. So it’s not like they’ve re run ad campaigns with the word purpose all over it, or, or like, you know, children’s hospital or disinterest foundation.

[00:19:11] That’s not what purpose is anymore. Maybe used to be 10 years ago, but not anymore. And yet there’s a lot of marketing involved. The marketing has changed because it’s all about telling the right stories. So if this company would be telling stories or doing marketing, that was all about their product and the processes and the, you know, the, the, the, all the little details of how they do it, people would be bored that, that wouldn’t be a, you know, an attractive brand, but what they’re doing right.

[00:19:48] And I don’t know the company, but what they’re doing right is to storytelling and marketing today is storytelling, right?

[00:19:57] Phil: Yeah, you’re right. If you’re looking at their, say alternatives to pesticides, for sure. You’d build a brand around saying. The natural alternative to, or, you know, reduce toxicity or you you’d be making those marketing plays for sure.

[00:20:10] But I guess, yeah, that’s a, that’s a product and brand specific conversation and that’s got to align with the bigger purpose of the organization. As an Australian company, which is a very global company now as well. And might not be that familiar, but I just love its purpose statement. It’s a, it creates the bionic ear products.

[00:20:31] And it’s the name of the company is cochlear and its purpose. Is to help people hear and be heard. I love that. And that’s, that’s just a beautiful wrap. Right. But then, you know, by the time you get to the actual product style, you know, there’s lots of disintermediation disintermediation to that. They might bring some of that into their marketing.

[00:20:51] And you’ve got to have that alignment and it’s an overused word, but authenticity, I guess, through that chain. And I think that the ultimate test for companies does its internal culture. Match that external messaging that’s going on.

[00:21:04] Sarah: Yeah. And it, it feels like it’s always about the bigger picture, because if we, and I see that often with startups, we have a big startup kind of scene in Switzerland.

[00:21:14] And if a startup is like an engineer or some kind of tech person, right. They are obviously very passionate about what they built. It’s like this thing that they build, whether it’s tech or it’s, you know, some other kind of product, well that often that’s where the error happens, because they are talking constantly about the product and not about the bigger picture.

[00:21:41] Like 10 years ago, we would say, don’t talk about the product, talk about the client. And that was, you know, client-centric marketing, but I am actually saying that that even is outdated and overrated because now we need to really go bigger picture and purpose is bigger pictures like, well, what does this thing do for us as a, you know, humanity and that’s, I think where the purpose comes in.

[00:22:06] Phil: Yeah, I agree. I agree completely. And I think the good thing is a lot of startups are very tuned into addressing societal challenges. The big question is very much around, do they do it in a, in a healthy way, in the sense of what trade offs are being made now? I’ll probably be making no, trade-offs, there’ll be really pure and pursuing that purpose in a very robust way.

[00:22:30] But if you think I can even throw up an example like Uber now, Uber great. In terms of efficiency. So existing assets. So we’re taking people who in theory already own cars, and we’re just better utilizing those cars. So environmentally great. I can say in Australia and New York and some other parts of the world where they gain share in their markets and government didn’t manage that.

[00:22:54] Well, then a lot of taxi drivers you know, led them to suicide and, and ruin. So you know, there’s a lot of offsetting factors there and you, you can’t. I guess you can make financial equivalents, but it’s very hard to, to say, well, we know is for cost five lives, is that, you know, is that worth the benefits for the environment?

[00:23:12] That’s almost an impossible calculation. So yeah, I think that’s that’s a real challenge in delivering a lot of business models.

[00:23:20] Sarah: It is. And that’s why the, the B Corp assessment, like the companies who have that B Corp label, it’s really not. You know, Th they couldn’t you Uber couldn’t get this assist the B Corp labeled because they’re only focusing on one thing where in the B Corp label, you really have to fulfill all of these things.

[00:23:42] So that includes the employees and it includes the stakeholders includes the, the community. So. No longer just focus on one thing and say, you know, look at us. We’re so eco-friendly.

[00:23:56] Phil: Yeah. And ultimately we’d love every like enterprises. We’d love every company to be a big copied. You’d love that to be obsolete at some point in time.

[00:24:05] Sarah: Yeah. Again, it’s that? It’s that the thing with the social enterprise, maybe, eventually everyone is a big. And so

[00:24:13] Phil: the big challenge in the corporate world is often around timeframes here because the timeframes it takes to put purpose into action properly and filter it down. We’re talking years, we’re not talking product life cycles, which might be, you know, 6, 12, 18 months.

[00:24:28] So, yeah, it was a real challenge to manage. If you’re a publicly listed company to bring your shareholders along for that ride is very skillful. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it requires skillful. Yeah,

[00:24:42] Sarah: I’m going to come back to, to the marketing piece. So, so my new tagline is marketing for the generation that cares.

[00:24:50] And I noticed that you had a blog post up that I’m going to look at the title. Do companies know how gen Z thinks about purpose? I thought that that really spoke to me and, and I would like to hear a bit more, well, what your reflection was and what was in that block.

[00:25:10] Phil: Yeah, well, it comes from, excuse me, a couple of interviews I’ve been doing and another small venture, which hasn’t been released yet.

[00:25:17] That’ll be, be out soon. Excuse me. I interviewed a a guy called Ben Smith in the U S who runs an agency, which is very much around generational success in businesses and having this conversation around gen Z. And he picked up some really, I think, subtle things. Gen Y or millennials and gen Z.

[00:25:36] His view was they’re not quite the same and it makes sense to me, he’s saying gen Y slash millennials to really care about the planet, but they will be more. Prone to want to address it using a more traditional business model and still might have wealth creation is a, is a big part of that model.

[00:25:52] And his view is that gen Z really isn’t so focused on that business model side of it. They really just want to know that there’s purpose embedded in the core of their work. That purpose isn’t just. The one day you volunteering or what you have, it’s really part of everyday business. Some other research by an agency called McCrindle was saying that it’s a big factor for Virgin SIDS that they you know, it’s, it’s the sick and most important factor.

[00:26:18] That purpose has to be core to their work. And they’re worried they’re going to end up in a company that doesn’t feel fulfilling. So that’s one of the big worries in.

[00:26:27] Sarah: Yeah. Do you know if that was that research was done before COVID or

[00:26:32] Phil: after COVID it was quite recent actually. Yeah, I think this year,

[00:26:37] Sarah: yeah.

[00:26:37] Okay. Because I think, you know, COVID change things even more so like the. Crisis, like that always changes values. And I think probably even more than before now, do people yeah. Look for meaning in life and especially the gen Z generation.

[00:26:55] Phil: Maybe it’s I’m thinking out loud. Yeah. I’m gen X, you know, maybe it changed caused gen X’s to reflect a lot more than they normally have.

[00:27:04] And and gen Z is yes, maybe, but they’re probably already on that line of thinking anyway. So,

[00:27:09] Sarah: So it’s more like a relief for them that finally we’re cut to catching up with them. Yeah. Yeah. I was just reading an article about going back to work full time. And, and so some of the companies even Google I saw Google will require employees to go back three days per week.

[00:27:28] And so there was like a big revolution. People are like signing a petition that they don’t want to come back to work even just three days. So it’ll be interesting how that plays out.

[00:27:40] Phil: Yeah, for sure. And I guess being flexible, giving your employees flexibilities is one part of the equation. There’s a lot more you can do within the business model to, I think amplify impact and purposes.

[00:27:52] Yeah.

[00:27:53] Sarah: Yeah. Well, I just have to say it you’re, you’re like the third person I talked to the podcast about purpose, who comes from, you know, a career in the financial world. So I just thought I’d bring it up and ask you if you think there’s a, if it’s just a coincidence or if that kind of, you know, tough money oriented world.

[00:28:21] Led you maybe to reflect more about you know, what really matters and what the purpose is.

[00:28:27] Phil: Yeah. I don’t know. It’s interesting. You’ve made so many people there because I tend to run a lot into people who have left the advertising world. And as I said, say, it’s a bit of a reduction site and then there’s the standard one.

[00:28:44] People say I’m a recovering MBA. You know, I’m living this new life. Look, I don’t know if there’s a pattern there or not, but I think what’s at the core of all of this is there’s a transformation going on in my mind. And that is, we often think that purpose is about making a difference and it is. But all would say you and Elian, everyone watching this show would be making a difference.

[00:29:10] In some way. The challenge we have is because of the critical nature of climate change and other issues is, is around maximizing our different. So that transition is not just from making a difference to maximizing the difference. And therefore that brings into play. You know, if you can engage a business in really shifting a little bit, that’s going to have a huge impact in, in maximizing the difference you can make.

[00:29:36] So, you know, I think generations maybe, you know, mine and before mine have thought, okay, I go to work and then outside of work, I give a bit. I think that’s a very old and outdated model. Now it’s, you’ve got choices. You can do things outside of work and I’ll do that. And I’m sure you do it, but I do things that integrate within my work and I help other people connect their purpose to things they do in their profession, in their teams and with their organizations as well as what they do outside of work.

[00:30:03] So I think that’s our modern day challenge is to really up that.

[00:30:09] Sarah: Yeah. And like you said, there’s, you know, there’s a 10 years, two to two 30, which is the moment who knows what what will be then, but we better get our act together. So maybe bringing it back to the entrepreneurs. Yeah. What is one action that you would say we can do today or tomorrow to not just talk about.

[00:30:32] Purpose and change, but actually do something towards.

[00:30:37] Phil: Yeah. Well can I just give a very quick example of someone I’ve recently found in a, in a relatively small business? Because I think it shows how impact can be elevated. And I’m not saying everyone can do this, but the more we look out for this type of store.

[00:30:50] The better we will be because we’ll recognize it and replicate it. There’s a lady in a legal practice in, in a city in Australia and it’s mainly family law and a lot of their caseload is dealing with divorce and separately. Now I don’t know what it’s like in Europe or in Switzerland, but the average legal costs associated with divorce in Australia around a hundred thousand dollars.

[00:31:14] That’s the legal costs when there’s, you know property involved in children. It can be a lot more than that. It can be a bit less, but on average it’s a hundred thousand dollars. So she found in her legal practice. She was turning people away because you know, six out of 10 people who came through her door could not afford that prospectively.

[00:31:31] That might be all their savings, all the equity they had in the house, or maybe they just didn’t have it as a result. A lot of people self represent in court when they’re going through. The separation, they don’t have the right documents. They don’t know the right legal arguments. The five minutes with the judge the judge just says, we’ll adjourn this and come back later with, with the right things.

[00:31:52] And it puts pressure on the system. And as we know, there’s already stress, there’s probably abuse, sometimes physical and mental with these processes. And so on. Anyway, the point to this story is she saw this problem and she invested a quarter of a million dollars in creating an online platform to help people, couples navigate the separation process so that they could come out the other end with a set of court ready documents that they could take to a judge.

[00:32:21] Now they do this online, it dampens down any aggressive language or behavior, and if they can get to the end of that process, it doesn’t cost them a hundred thousand dollars. It costs them less than $1,000. So there’s a huge social benefit there. And she currently has more than 1300 active users on this platform.

[00:32:44] So yes, there’s a huge social benefit there. And at the same time, it’s very profitable. It will become profitable for her. Now she could use those profits to pay yourself a big dividend, but I know she won’t because I know her and she’s going to invest it in the next, she’s got 17 projects in mind. This is just the first of 18.

[00:33:05] She’s going to reinvest it in other disruptions. So you think about the impact she’s having. It’s a positive impact on thousands of people. The alternative traditional way of thinking in the legal profession might be, I will do some pro bono legal work for someone two or three hours a week. And that’s great too.

[00:33:23] I’m not saying there’s a problem with that, but we’ve seen how. And she might Tracy might still do that herself, but what she’s done through her business using a business model is just huge. And I think that is the core to this profit with purpose and bringing more resources to our big problems.

[00:33:41] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:33:42] I love how she’s using technology. And still scaling intimacy in a way, because she’s helping these couples solve their problems through the technology. And, and of course, yeah, not just one couple where she, she could probably do pro bono, but, but like 1,300.

[00:34:06] Phil: Yeah, she’s great. And she’s on track on track to several thousand.

[00:34:09] So that, that way of thinking in, in. Small business or a very large company there’s opportunities like that out there, but then it’s innovation. It’s not, you know, there’s no formula that tells you exactly where to find it. You’ve got to go out and find it. And there’s a certain, I’m not great at running small enterprises or large companies.

[00:34:30] But there are people who are, but I can help guide them to find those opportunities and they can execute a lot better than I can.

[00:34:37] Sarah: So in a way, the invitation for the listeners would be to, you know, think outside of the box look at your business model, look at what you’re offering. Is there anything that you can invent or do differently that, that yeah.

[00:34:54] Helps you, but helps also the planet? The people you’re serving. And again, we can give you the recipe, but there’s something, well, the,

[00:35:05] Phil: the principle, the one principle we’re talking about, if I can abbreviate it is really just saying, look around you. What are the social or environmental issues affecting your business in terms of how it runs or.

[00:35:18] That offer opportunities that are relevant to your business. And then, you know, think about you know, how that overlaps with your business agenda and where can you find sort of an intersection of the business agenda and the social or environmental agenda and where they overlap. That’s where the goal is.

[00:35:37] Yeah, we’ve just got to find it beautiful.

[00:35:40] Sarah: Thank you so much. Please, I would like to have you tell people where they can find you tell us about your book and yeah, whatever else

[00:35:48] Phil: you’d like to do. Sure. Okay. The, well, the book is called connecting profit with purpose and I’ll hold it up here. And it’s available on most online booksellers.

[00:35:59] The Booktopia is Amazon’s book depository. I think all the major ones. And it’s on my website, Phil preston.com.edu. And if you want to look at this more from a business corporate lens I’ve just launched, like you said, you’d already branded, I’ve just launched a new corporate brand, which is called.

[00:36:17] Business purpose project. So business purpose, project.com is the URL. And I’m really excited about that because it’s bringing more of this storytelling to the business world so that we can accelerate the purpose economy quicker than we might otherwise be doing.

[00:36:33] Sarah: Wonderful. I have one last question, Phil.

[00:36:35] And that is what are you grateful for today? Our district.

[00:36:40] Phil: Well I’m cause I’m in the greater Sydney area in Australia. I’m in lockdown. We have been for about, I think six weeks now. I’m grateful for the fact my kids have grown up and have left home because I just cannot comprehend how anyone with young kids would be getting through lockdown.

[00:36:58] So I’m totally grateful for that.

[00:37:02] Sarah: That’s funny. I was, yeah, I was just picturing then again, they’re 19 and 22, you mentioned before. So aren’t, they just usually just, you know, in their rooms or like, I, I, my lockdown was pretty quiet, so I, I

[00:37:18] Phil: you actually had the dog barking partway through our interview.

[00:37:20] That’s yeah, that’s the main interruptions I face at the moment. Well,

[00:37:24] Sarah: that’s a good one. Yeah, thanks so much for taking the time to be on the show. I appreciate

[00:37:30] Phil: it. Great. Nice to be here and thanks for having me on.

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