Growing Your Business Without Social Media

Viv Guy

Today I’m talking to Viv Guy about growing your business without social media.

Viv is a business coach, mentor, strategist, and the host of the podcast Marketing Without Social Media. Viv is passionate about helping service-based business owners create recurring 5k+ months, WITHOUT social media (bye-bye hamster wheel of content!), having created her first successful biz in her 20s without it. The best bit; doing it all in just 20 hours a week!

"We need an audience in order to get clients and customers and doing it through social media, especially organically, is not effective." – @sarahsantacroce #humanemarketing Share on X

In this episode, you’ll learn about growing your business without social media as well as…

  • Why Viv thinks there’s a growing interest in ditching Social Media
  • If not Social Media, then what? Viv’s ideas to grow your business without it
  • Her 3 favorite ways of growing without social
  • How to get traffic to our free offers to get people on to our email list
  • Advantages of email vs. Social Media
  • How Viv thinks Social Media will evolve in the next 5 year
  • And so much more

You may also be interested in reading this blog post: Marketing without Social Media and Still Having a Thriving Business.

Viv’s Resources

Viv’s Website

Viv’s Podcast: Marketing Without Social Media

Viv’s Free Guide: 21 Ways to Get Clients Off Social Media

Sarah’s Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah’s One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We’re Human – Sarah’s book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it’s fantastic!

Email Sarah at

Thanks for listening!

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There’s no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Imperfect Transcript of the show

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Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] Hey 

Viv. So good to speak to you today. I look forward to our, I’m gonna just let in the listeners that were doing a double episode. So we’re, we’re recording first for my show. And then I’m gonna be recording one for your show. So yay. We get to hang out all morning. So welcome to the humane marketing podcast with, so 

Viv: I’m excited to have.

Thanks, sir. I’m so, so happy to be here. And one a morning, we’ve got how exciting is it’s awesome. I think, you know, we’re gonna come away from this, like bursting at the seams. I think there’s so much energy and value that we take 

Sarah: exactly. And all these new ideas about social media and marketing and all of that.


Viv: yeah, I’m [00:07:00] really excited. 

Sarah: Cool. Well, let’s dive right in. I, I, I have some big picture questions for you, but then also some nitty gritty, like, you know, how do we do this without social media? Because yeah, there’s, there’s obviously the big picture. So the that’s kind of what I, where I wanna start. I, I feel like.

There’s maybe some movements starting together with my humane marketing revolution. Maybe there’s a movement also away from social media. Yeah. What do you see? What do you hear in the grapes? What’s going on? 

Viv: Yeah. So I think you become more aware don’t you have things are movements when you, you kind of embrace that yourself.

Mm-hmm . So for me, obviously, when I, I had the idea of, I want to go off social media entirely, right? You start kind of looking around who else is doing this? Am I crazy? you know, but it was great. Cuz the coach I was working with at the time, Greg Fon, he had, he would pivoted away from social media. So I was like, okay.

Greg can do it. And then I started looking around and came across [00:08:00] Leon Dawson, you know, who I made 11 million and doesn’t use social media now and there’s, and, you know, look around, there are so many people coming off, social media. So I kind of was like, okay, there are people moving away, but the big thing was.

Can can like younger businesses, newer businesses do it, you know? Cause I was seeing a lot of more established businesses doing it. Mm-hmm , you know, multi billion dollar businesses doing it, you know, makeup brands, perfect brands and, and Tesla and people like that. So I was like that. Mm. So I do think there is, I do think there’s a movement is in answer.

The short answer is yes. I do think there is a, a movement away from social media. There’s a lot, obviously that sits behind that and that the rationale mm-hmm, , I’m very logical. You know, so for me, I like to see a good return on my investment of my time and energy. And I didn’t see that coming through social media also on a kind of more intuitive, emotional level.

I just didn’t like social media. I’ve never liked social media. And it just never felt [00:09:00] right. And I fell into that trap with, with, with my second business, which was a personal brand photography of really, you know, listening to the experts out, out there who were, were saying, you know, you must use social media and you must be on it all time and you must be responsive and da, da duh.

And, you know, I just felt. I felt like I was in like social media prison. Like I just didn’t have a choice, you know? And, and I had to do all of this stuff and it felt horrible. But I did it and I built a very successful business, but there was always a part of me that was like, I don’t like this. And is there another way.

And then when I moved into. You know, very naturally into the, into the coaching world because I’d built a very successful business people saying, how did you do that? I, and what I was, you know, intuitively, I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. You know, instinctively, I was. I don’t like it. It’s not really providing me the return on investment cuz energetically, I didn’t feel aligned, you know, with it.

So [00:10:00] obviously, you know, if you want to talk about sort of energy and what you put out, you’re getting return. I just, wasn’t seeing the, the return on investment for me in terms of leads. And I found it was so a big sort of energy drain and that’s just not what I wanted to. So yes, I was like, there’s gotta be another way.

And then I also found my clients were coming to me and I seemed to be attracting these clients who were. I don’t like social media. I don’t wanna use social media. Is there another way? And at that, that point, I had not gone entirely off social media. I was still using Facebook and Instagram, but I was attracting these people who were like, I don’t wanna use social media.

Can you help me? And I wasn’t putting that out there as a message at all, but obviously energetically, you know, and I’m not a woo person. I’m just gonna say this to everyone out there. I’m not, there is a big, you know, and I say that in the kindest possible way, you know, with affect. I’m not, you know, somebody who has studied and, and a lot of expertise and experience, but I have definitely embraced a lot more.

You know, woo. In the sense of really tapping into my intuition, you know, and, and my, [00:11:00] my instincts of what feels good. And, and I really do believe, obviously I was putting out this energy that was saying like social media sucks. It’s not the right way to build your business. And I was attracting these people before.

And then obviously before I kind of made that decision to a really niche and too. How to market without social media. So that was a very long winded answer. yeah. Yes. There’s a movement. 

Sarah: it’s it’s all good. It’s all good. Then there’s so many bits and pieces. And I wanna go back to one that stood out to me where you mentioned, you know, obviously it’s easy for the big companies, the, the big corporations, or even the small business owners you mentioned Leon do and Daws.

She was on social media before, right? Mm-hmm, , she’s built a, an empire on social media. So in a way it’s like, oh, well it’s easy for them to now say I’m going off social media because if, or, you know, the, the devil’s advocate would say, well, they have already built an audience. So it it’s, I think it’s really relevant that you share.[00:12:00] 

We have built businesses before social media and kind of look at these cases and then also share your experience saying, well, I built a business now without social media, right. Because it’s, it’s everywhere. And so we’re like, well, Yeah, but it seems like you have to do it in order to get some kind of audience.

It’s almost like we have to unlearn everything we learned all the business advice and marketing advice. We, we got over the years, 

Viv: right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and, and I built my first seven figure business without any social media and yes, I’m that old social media did not exist when that business launched.

Right. And it was never somewhere I needed to kind of go you know, Yeah, I just didn’t do it then. And you look around. Yeah. As you say, then there’s a lot of advice that says you have to use social media because, but we look at that and, you know, I had a great conversation when I had Leone Dawson on my show because she’s obviously been in business quite long time now.

And when you, you know, when social media media first arrived on Facebook, first appeared, you know, you could put [00:13:00] one post out there. And it would get like 80 to 90% kind of reach and engagement on it. Mm-hmm , which was phenomenal. And year on year, it declined, you know? So you’re having to put out more and more content to get any kind of engagement or reach.

Yeah. And I think there’s a lot of very successful entrepreneurs and business owners out there who obviously. Kind of got on that Bandra and that social media marketing kind of, and took that opportunity that was there, which was great to market using social media at a time when it was very effective.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But that’s what they’re now kind of selling. 

Sarah: Yeah. And, and they’re not telling you that now they have a team of 10 people who constantly create content and do all the social media management 

Viv: for you for that. And I, and I often wonder, you know, if they were to start a business right now, you know, in 20, 22 or, you know, it, what would they do?

Because it would not be, I’m not gonna say any, it was easy for them, but it would, it’s very different, you know? [00:14:00] Horizon now in, in the marketing world. And I think it’s, you know, you can become so far removed, you know? So when you are so successful, if you’re still trying to kind of teach people who are early on, you’re not kind of on the ground doing those kind of ground level Strategies.

So how can you then be kind of teaching? It just feels really misaligned for me sometimes that, you know 

Sarah: yeah. It’s that cookie cutter approach. Oh, this worked for me. So I’m gonna teach you and make millions of dollars. you know, now that yeah. And it, yeah. There’s no guarantee that it’s gonna work for all these other people.

Viv: Yeah. And I think the big thing for me was always, you know, that it was missing. In all the courses and trainings I did and, you know, everything I invested in that nobody said what feels good to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was the one question that was missing until I worked with an amazing coach who was like, what do you want it to feel?

Like, what do you want it to look like? And I was like, oh, that’s a choice here. Is it permission? 

Sarah: Yeah. It’s just permission giving. Yeah. And I 

Viv: think, but I think for so many. Business owners. I, [00:15:00] I work with who come to me. They, they don’t know, there’s no awareness of other approaches to marketing because when we start a business, you know, most people start a business.

You know, whether you say you’re a therapist or. Or you wanna be a business coach or whatever it is, you know, where have you already kind of been hanging out on a personal level when you maybe were in your corporate career? Mm-hmm on social media. So you kind of like, it’s familiar, it’s comfortable. So I’m gonna go there instinctively and automatically, and I’m not gonna explore those other options.

Yeah, because this feels like something that I could do and it’s easy. And everybody says, you know, the noise out there face, you have to be there. you have to be there. And this is gonna be the easiest way to grow your business. And it’s just not the case now, you know? Yeah. And there is so much, so much kind of data out there to kind of back this up that says this is not the most effective.

Way to build your business now and to grow your audience, you know, and, and what do we know? You know, we need, we need leads. We need an audience, you know, in order to get [00:16:00] clients and customers and doing it through social media, especially organically is not effective. And I was speaking to. And a, a Facebook ads manager last week who was very much working with small businesses.

And she said, honestly, I’m, I cannot sell what I do anymore, because I don’t believe it’s the right thing for small businesses. Because since the iOS changes last year, it’s even harder now. And you know, you are, if you wanna spend 10 to 20 pounds per day on ads, You’re just not gonna get the results, you know, so she was saying it like instinctively for her and intuitively it just didn’t feel right to be selling that.

And so she’s gonna come on the podcast and talk about that to people now that actually even the pay to play, you know, cause I’ve always said, you know, if you wanna do it, it’s pay to play. But actually. It’s paid to play. If you’ve got a lot of money to invest and a lot, you know, a lot of money to invest in it.

And also you have many other strategies supporting it. You know, you think about the big businesses out there. They are not just pushing out [00:17:00] paid ads. Now they are looking to other, other means of bringing in leads. 

Sarah: Yeah. Wow. Such a good example of a humane marketer and, and often you know, the way you come to humane marketing it is by kind of.

Tuning into your integrity and saying, can I still do this? You know, and for some people it might still work. She might still get clients and get paid, right? Yeah. But she can’t sleep at night because she’s like this, I know this is not working for my clients. They’re just paying too much for the results that they’re getting.

And, and I just saw stat also someone sharing on, on. Because that’s kind of my turf, where, where I hang out in with LinkedIn ads, 90%, 97% of people don’t click on the page that you want them to click on. So they never click over to your landing page. Wow. So the, this ad guy was saying the, the, the new way of looking at ads is kind of like looking at them as billboards.[00:18:00] 

So you engage with the O audience that. Already there in your network, you don’t send them somewhere else and then try to sell them something there. Right? Yeah. That doesn’t mean we make our content all look like ads, but we, you know, we engage differently. But, but yeah, like you pay tons and tons of money for these ads and they don’t convert because nobody actually clicks on them anymore.

Viv: Yeah. It’s you know, and, and it it’s out there. The data, you know, the return on investment. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s low. It is low. Yeah. It’s low, you know, and again, you’ve gotta have a lot of money and you want to have an ads manager because there’s so many changes with algorithms and everything, you know, you could spend days just doing that.

Oh yeah. And you know, what’s working this month might not work next month. So, you know, ads are a minefield of the, you know, minefield of their own. If you want to do that, but yeah, organically, I, I think there’s just a whole reframing that I say to people, like, if you. For example, Facebook groups, because there is a big thing, you know, the [00:19:00] community aspect that, that, that people love with Facebook groups.

But, but what’s happening is a lot of people are hanging out on, on Facebook and Instagram and places and trying to attract people into, into those kind of groups and communities. And that’s really difficult. So I say to people look outside of social media, how can you bring people in to your world, into your email list first and foremost, cuz that’s your valuable asset and.

If you want them to come hang out with you, sign, post them from your emails, come hang out with me on Instagram or Facebook group or whatever, but stop trying to build your audience like in, you know, on these social media platforms, build it, you know? Via an email list, as they say, cuz that is, you know, the gold, that’s the pot of gold in your business.

And then direct them if that’s what you want, because then they’re gonna see more of you, you know, they’re gonna see your emails more than they’re gonna see that content. And that’s a much better way to kind of bring people in. And you know, you dunno what’s gonna happen. You don’t own social media.

You know, we all know that. Yeah. I missed the blackout last year cuz it didn’t affect me. But obviously I [00:20:00] woke up to, you know, lots of emails. We kind of didn’t have social media have an email list, blah, blah, blah. You know, you don’t own this. Yeah. And we’re well aware of that. So I just say kind of flip your whole approach to how you are using social media, if you do want to keep using social media.

Yeah. So that you are not kind of, so, so kind of. In that world. I think that’s the problem. We need to look outside and expand our, our vision beyond social media. And I, I think at the moment, a lot of people are kind of stuck and, and to that tunnel vision, that this is the only way. Yeah. 

Sarah: And, and I just wanna add, I’m kind of allergic to this term community on, you know, Facebook when it’s.

It’s not actually a community. It’s more an audience for yeah. The guru to, you know, find clients. Yes. And, and, and it’s a misuse, in my opinion of the word community, cuz a community is, you know, interconnected. It’s not just connected to the guru who wants to sell to 

Viv: use. Yes. So a whole different story. I absolutely [00:21:00] agree.

And I’ve been reading the book you are invited by John Levy. Mm-hmm it’s a great book and it talks about how. We need like actual connection with people like human connection, you know, and, and how you, we have, you know, we, we, we know more people in this digital era, you know, when we have connections, but we’re not really connected and we’re so much more isolated.

And I think this comes with this, this, this misconception of community, I’m part of a community, but actually. True communi very lonely. Yes. Very, yeah. Very isolating and lonely. So I, I, I absolutely agree with you on that. There’s a whole episode just on, just on that. on that idea. Yeah, absolutely. So 

Sarah: people are probably just, you know, listening nodding saying yes, yes, yes.

But they will also wanna know, well, okay. If not social media, then what, okay. We heard you say, you know, we need an email list, but how do we get people on this email list? It’s kind of. Probably feels like the chicken and the egg, so yeah. So yeah, [00:22:00] take us kind of through some pragmatic things on how to yeah.

Get more people on your email list because we still want to grow an audience that we can send these emails 

Viv: to. Absolutely. And this is the big thing that I mentioned, obviously that the Facebook and, and social media outage last year, and, you know, I’m gonna get on my soapbox for just a moment to say the thing that really railed me, waking up to those emails the next day was, you know, you need to have an email list.

You don’t own social media and I’m like, we’re not idiots. We all know this, but not one person offered the how, how do you build an email list? So I was like, do they even know the answer to this beyond social media? Cuz these were a lot of obviously like social media experts out there, experts. So. For me, I’m very much about the, the how and the practicality.

There is no secret here, you know, and I, I’ve obviously there’s a guide that I’ve shared with you, given you the link for 21 ways. My favorite 21 ways to market without social media, there are hundreds. [00:23:00] 

Sarah: Yeah. And there’s a great video on your website as well on the homepage where you take us through some 

Viv: of these things.

So, yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I, and I’ve offered like 21 ways for, for kind of people who are more service based business is cuz that’s my area. Expertise mm-hmm but you know, project based businesses, there are additional ways as well. Anyway, so your 

Sarah: favorite. Three ways three, 

Viv: my favorite three ways again, for, for me personally.

And I just want you guys who are listening to take this, you know, don’t just try and replicate me because I have a, my, you know, there are different marketing archetypes. So what works for me may not work for you. Depends on your business. Depends on who you are. And again, there’s a whole, all that kind of.

Quiz and things you can do there to figure out who that is what that is. So for me, ways, I best way for me to grow my list. I collaborate in bundles. They’re really great for me because I get to connect with other people. I build partnerships. So bundles for anyone out there, what is a bundle you’re kind of going, Hey, I dunno what that is.

So this is where maybe. 20 businesses come together and they [00:24:00] put something in there. So a free course, a free ebook or something that they would normally charge for. And they all put some offering into, to this, this bundle bag basket, you know, virtual bag. And then what happens is everybody shares this with their own email list.

So you add value, you give a lot of value to your own audience saying, Hey, these are other things that could be really useful. And only obviously do bundles that, that, that have kind of collaborations and contributions from people who, who are gonna help add value to your audience. Yeah. And so, you know, you are sharing your offering and getting like your, you know, eyes on, on who you are and what you do.

You know, to 20 other people’s audiences and it’s, so is 

Sarah: this like a course or some kind of mini program that you’re 

Viv: offering could be a course mini program. Ebook could be templates, you know, could be like the 20 emails you wanna send when you’re launching something, whatever it might be. [00:25:00] So it’s a great way to kind of look at that.

So for me, bundle’s worked really, really 

Sarah: well. And are you usually the one organizing these bundles or once you organize one, then you. Kind of know the people and you get invited. How, how do you get started with 

Viv: bundles? Yeah. So you could organize a bundle. I did a, a bundle last year. But you can just contribute to bundles.

You don’t have to ever run your own if you don’t want to. And the great thing is kind of, once you get. And discover one. And how do you find them? Google, Google bundles, asking your networks, look around, check out emails. People are normally talking about them. So kind of find out who’s run one. You’ll have missed it, probably, you know, in terms of getting in that one, but getting in touch with them, like look at who else was contributing because most people kind of are on the circuit doing the rounds, you know?

So if that’s a strategy that works you’ll find people will generally be kind of contributing. Right in that same network and it opens up a lot of connections for you, you know, in terms of you can then collaborate and, and partner with people. One on [00:26:00] one, you can look at joint ventures. So it opens up many opportunities.

If, if you make the effort, because they’re quite anonymous in the, the sense that you can just put your thing in and never speak to another person who’s in that bundle. So, you know, utilize it either reach out to people, kind of say, Hey, we’re both in the same bundle. I really like what you do think we’ve got some crossover, you know, so take it that step further.

Some people will, some, some bundle organizers will run like a zoom kind of session where you can all get to kind of connect and meet and greet, which is really nice to actually. Kind of hear from people and really say like, I agree. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I always recommend that when I’m on a summit, I’m like, let’s connect with each other for the summit speakers, you know, how come, how come people forget that part.

It’s such an important part because yeah. We are also. Of wanting to connect with peers and like-minded people. So, yeah. I agree with you. It’s so great to, to have that [00:27:00] for bundles or summits or conferences as well. Yeah. 

Viv: Because you know, you get to hear more about the business and what, what it is they do, which, you know, when you kind of just see one offering in a bundle, you don’t get the whole picture of that business.

So I think it’s. Such a great way to, to do that. So if you are gonna run a bundle, I would highly recommend you do a zoom session where you can, you know, it doesn’t have to be long, 30, 40 minutes where people can kind of just go round hot seat, introduce themselves. So bundles bundles are like a great, and the reason I like them is you get a really.

Great return on your investment. You can create one asset. So one mini course, one, you know ebook, whatever it is, and you can use it in many different bundles. So you do that piece of work once and you get to repurpose it. And that’s a really great thing, you know, because we wanna, we don’t wanna add and create lots of extra work for ourselves.

Yeah. And I would say if you wanna kind of go down that bundle route and that’s gonna be a core strategy, have a few different offerings and you can just rotate them for different bundle. Just, just a follow 

Sarah: up question, like in terms of the [00:28:00] offering, what have you seen kind of the value? Is this something that’s worth 50 bucks or 500 bucks or, or 

Viv: more?

It entirely depends on the bundle. And I don’t think the value is the big pull for people. I don’t think people kind of go, oh, this would cost me $500. I’m gonna go for that. It’s really. Understanding who it’s targeted at the audience mm-hmm and what are their biggest struggles? And this is where I have seen people say, well, I did a bundle and I didn’t get any signups out and I 

Sarah: didn’t create, so it was the wrong offer or the wrong 

Viv: audience, or yeah.

Or people downloaded it because they were kind of just going through the whole thing, downloading everything, and then they didn’t get any leads from it. You know, if, if it’s, if it’s right and you have pitched it right, you should, you know, People joining your mailing list, you should get people then booking in to have like calls or conversations, or if you wanna do trick wire office, you should be, you know, that next step should happen.

And that’s the process to kind of really look at. So, yeah. Bundles, I like for me works for me. And [00:29:00] then speaking, I love kind of guessing on people’s podcasts and in, in kind of people’s masterminds, really adding like value. And as you know, I can talk for a long time on my topic. So yeah, I really like to go in and guess speak and I think that adds a different level of connection as well, to, to bundles.

So bundles you’ve gotta out for me. I believe you’ve got a longer nurture. Kind of journey for those people that are coming in. Whereas when you go in and guest speak I think that’s fast tracked as well. Hugely because obviously, you know, there’s trust imparted there’s so there’s so much that comes with that.

So for me, guest speaking, I am really energized by having two-way conversations. And this is interesting cuz I, you know, my archetype is, is a salesperson or a persuader mm-hmm , it’s a, is a slightly nicer way of putting, putting it. I think. Kind of salesperson brings with it, not always the best, the best vibes.

So, yeah. For me, It would, you know, for a persuader architect, people would always say, well, video’s great for you, but I hated [00:30:00] video. I hated doing things like on my own because there was, wasn’t the two way like exchange and the, that energy. So I found it really difficult. Whereas if I’m doing things like that, you know, now we’re having a conversation video.

I just, it works so differently for me. It’s a great way to do that. So yeah, I like that kind of interaction. I like to speak to people. And that’s, I think my social media wasn’t great for me. It just didn’t feel like I was speaking to. Yeah, what’s the third one. Oh, sorry. That was number two. Yeah. 

Sarah: Forgot.

I’m like waiting baby. wait, 

Viv: waiting, waiting, waiting. And the third one for growing audiences for me is is, is podcast podcasting. You know, so for me, I have my own podcast and I love that and kind of putting that out there. And it’s an interesting one because it works in two ways. And as I say, it works for me, for my archetype.

It works in terms of it can bring in new audiences, but it’s also fantastic for adding value and nurturing my existing audiences. So it works. It’s like a double whammy. So you think, if you think about like, what is your intention when [00:31:00] you’re using social media and you’re trying to kind of give people value and stuff, but it allows an opportunity to go so much deeper than kind of like the odd post.

That’s something that that’s really effective. And the amount of people I get on calls with who wanna work with me and they say, oh, I’ve been listening to your podcast. You know? And I love it when people message, they go and I’m in California and I listen to your podcast and you know, I love it. And, and this is great, cuz you kind of seen that, that maybe people aren’t, haven’t been ready to work with you, but they’ve been getting this value from you and kind of understanding how that works in your, your marketing process is really effective.

So you can use it as a, a, a kind of lead generator and then as a nurture. Sort of a converter as well. 

Sarah: Yeah. It, it totally, it it’s like in humane marketing, we, we’re all about bringing more of you to your marketing and, and that’s what you do in your podcast. You know, people really get to know you, your values, your worldview what you stand for.

Because you’re not just in promotion mode all the time. I feel like on social media, a lot of people are kind of going [00:32:00] into promotion mode, right? Yeah. Where on social media? Sorry on podcast. You, you are not, we’re not in promotion mode. We’re, we’re not promoting anything. We’re just having a, a deep conversation.

And so that’s when I feel like it’s more real. Yeah. I mean, there’s also podcasts where I feel like, wow, okay. That’s not real. Like, they’re still like, kind of like, I wanna just kind of scratch, you know, the surface and go show me your real human being. Yeah. Usually, yeah. You can tell, okay. This feels like, oh, I’m really speaking to live.

And that’s how she is in real life as well, you know? 

Viv: Yeah. And I think this is the beauty as well. When you come away from social media, you know, if you think about how you utilize social media, now it’s so much is. Quantity kind of content creation approach. You just need to push out content in the hope that it’s gonna get seen multiple times a day to have any chance of being seen by other people that are in, in your world.

Whereas I [00:33:00] think when we come away from social media, We start serving with content that goes so much deeper, whether that’s podcasts, blogs, maybe YouTube power, two videos, you know, whatever that is, you get the opportunity to go so much deeper. And I think that’s where the true value lies. You know, and you can give everything away, you know, and I don’t hold back because at the end of the day, people come speak, cuz they’re like, I still need help.

Like implementing this. I need accountability. I need, you know, I just need support. I need someone to really kind of help guide. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I don’t think I think it’s actually there it’s the opposite effect. If you share more. People are like, oh wow. Now I can really see what, what it would be like to work with her instead of oh, you know, just gimme your top three tips and, and, and then don’t go into details that that’s yeah, just kind of 

Viv: superficial.

Yeah. But the big thing is, you know, just to kind of, sort of bring together, you know, they, they were my sort of top three ways. But the fastest way to grow your audience [00:34:00] off social media. Is to, to leverage, to borrow audiences. You know, there are three ways that you can grow an audience. You can buy an audience which we’ve touched on today.

You can build an audience. So building like a, a Facebook group, a community. And then also, you know, blog in what we kind of building an audience that way. Or you can borrow an audience, so borrowing other people’s audiences, you know, and I think sometimes people think, oh, that’s not great, but you know, borrowing audiences is a great way because actually you are giving value.

You’re giving value that, that. That audience, you know, maybe are not getting from the person who’s kind of leading that community known as a hub, you know, so actually bringing that outside expertise that can really serve deeper and that, you know, that is that that’s giving you are giving. So you’re not kind of taking away saying, well, I’m borrowing and I’m getting people signing up to my list and taking away you are not, you are adding value and, and that’s brilliant if people can resonate with what you, you offer and you.

Your unique way of [00:35:00] delivery, then that’s a fantastic thing, you know? So, so borrowing, you know, audiences and, and maybe borrowings, not the best term, because I think it brings maybe again, like negative kind of connotations for people. But, but that is fundamentally like the best way, the fastest way to grow your audience.

Sarah: To, to us what we use. One of the, the piece of the humane marketing mandala is partnership. And to me, it’s partnering, you know, it 

Viv: is partnering, borrowing is partner 

Sarah: partnering with other entrepreneurs and realizing that your clients gain something. I gain something because I’m exposing my clients to an expertise that I don’t have.

Yeah. And so really it really is partnering and, and I think we need to find our way back to that. We, you know, it’s part of the, this isolation that we kind of learned over the last 20 years, it’s like everybody on their own. No. Why, why, you know, we’re aligned, our values are aligned. Why not help each other grow our 

Viv: businesses?

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if you think [00:36:00] back to, to how. We survived back, you know, when we were like Neanderthals and, you know, paleolithic man and everything, you know, and we were at risk of being eaten by saber tooth tiger, you know, that community. Right. You know, and that partnering, you know, was an integral part of our survival.

And I think that’s why we struggle. So much emotionally and mentally with this isolation now, because we need, we, you know, we need that as human beings. And I think this whole thing with partnerships is just great because you get to connect with people, you know, you get to hop on a zoom and maybe you’re not in the same room physically with somebody, but, you know, having that face to face connection and having that one-on-one interaction is so much more powerful, you know, and, and opens up so many more opportunities because we are all connected.

Know that one person is. To so many other people and has their own networks and communities that potentially, you know, they can put you in touch with. So it’s, it’s, it’s just a big kind of. Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: [00:37:00] Right way. I started not offering a replay for my workshops or, you know, webinars, but to me they’re really workshops because they’re participated in.

Yes. And you know, I do, every time I send it out, I do get one or two nasty emails for, for not offering a replay again, it’s because we. Gotten so trained to be spoon fed, spooned more and more content and more and more information that people just sign up to 20 webinars and just get the content and, and then feel even more anxious and overloaded.

So I’m like we need to move away from that. And. Like you said, have real human connections, get onto a zoom call where there’s other people you don’t know and be in community with these people. So I, I build in a break where we say, let’s be human with each other and let’s pause and let’s see each other.

You know, fellow humans going through this experience of being an entrepreneur that that’s not easy. Yeah. But it’s an [00:38:00] unlearning. It’s a lot of unlearning. Yeah, 

Viv: we’re such, I mean, like you say, we, you know, we’re a society where everything’s on demand, you know, we get, yeah. We get stimulation. We get you know, social what’s the word I’m looking for?

Sorry. Validation social. We get social validation, you know, for instant gratification from checking social media, you know, Amazon prime. We can have things instantly, you know, on demand TV. Everything’s there, you know, we’re not used to having to wait as well. Is, is another big, big aspect aspect of that, you know?

And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy times. It’s, you know, we are overstimulated. I think someone said to me that. In the course of, is it a day or an hour? Now we have more stimulation than caveman would’ve had within their entire life. Wow. And that’s scary. And I think Neil Patel if you dunno who Neil Patel is like big or like he, he, he created Uber suggests, which is great, kind of online SEO search tool and things.

And. He put a, I think it was, I think it was Neotel [00:39:00] that talked about the attention span of a goldfish, I think is nine seconds. And I think in 2016 or 17, like the human, like attention span was something like 13 seconds. And now it’s shorter in 2022, then that of a goldfish. That is scary. Yeah. And that has come from this like constant, like like I think this, this on demand society and having this constant stimulation.


Sarah: So where do we go from here? Like, you know, where do you see, how do you see social media evolving over the next. Let’s just say five years. I don’t think we can even plan 10 years ahead anymore. So let’s just see two to five years. How do you see it evolving since there is this movement away from it?

I guess? Oh, well 

Viv: I think there will still be so many people who continue to use it because they. Believe it’s the only way, especially people early on in their journey. So I think they will be drawn to it again, as for the reasons I [00:40:00] cited, you know, I use it socially. It’s addictive, you know, first and foremost, we have to remember.

People are not gonna come away because it’s, it is an addiction. Mm-hmm . And so it’s still gonna, it’s still gonna be massively prominent. I don’t think social media is ever going to go away and I don’t necessarily think, you know, it, it needs to, for lots of people, it’s a great way, you know, to stay connected with, with friends and family, maybe.

But from a business perspective, I think you are gonna see a lot more people. After sort of six to 12 months in business, kind of saying this isn’t working this is not giving me, you know, the clients I’m not, not getting the leads and clients and I need to, I need another way. Yeah. And I think we’ll start seeing more people moving away from social media as that core kind of approach and strategy.


Sarah: Yeah. And, and like you said, it it’s a good tool, I guess, to stay in touch with family and friends. And so for that we’ll keep using [00:41:00] it. But yeah, I agree with you. There’s probably gonna be, and it’s a good thing. It’s like the, it’s almost like you have to go through it, you know, to see, oh, this is not working for me.

Yeah, if we all knew what was working right from the start Life would be too easy. so it’s like I have to go through some motions and, and see, okay, this is not working for me. Yeah. Also to learn about yourself, as we said, it’s a lot, the entrepreneurial journey is a lot about learning out.

Learning to find out what works for you. And so maybe we just need to first learn, okay, this is not 

Viv: working for me. Yeah. What feels good when, you know, and I think again, thinking about the people that come to me, they kind of say, I just, I don’t like it. It doesn’t feel good. And then, and I don’t do it, you know?

So this is the other thing I’m not consistent. So I just, it just, it’s not working. 

Sarah: Why give. All together then feel shame about not doing it, right? Yeah. That’s another piece. The 

Viv: shame. Yeah. So the shame is massive. Yeah. [00:42:00] That people feel and like this guilt and why, and, and you know, why am I not doing it?

And I’ve learned all the techniques and strategies, but you know, this, this shame. Yeah. Massive, massive. 

Sarah: This is so good. Thank you so much. Viv. I, I wanna come full circle, but. Share again, first of all, where people can find your report with the 21 ways where 

Viv: they can connect with you. It’s very easy.

It’s 21. That’s the number two, one ways. W a Y S that’s it. So yeah, Viv 21 ways. And you can get your, your free guide there. You can hear more from me on my podcast marketing without social media and, and, you know, I, I I’ve, this I’ve shared some real deep dives recently into kind of bundles.

If that’s something that’s of interest we’ve got summits coming up in. Couple of weeks. So, you know, all the different kind of approaches that I talk about within that guide, we do a lot kind of deep dives about how effective they are, you know, [00:43:00] the, the pros and cons. So you can kind of explore and get an insight into maybe what feels right for you before you kind of tackle things and, and invest in kind of learning how to do things.

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing those resources. And it’s, it’s, it’s almost funny. Like, you know, when I usually ask, where can people find you it’s like this long list of, you know, on Instagram, I’m this on Twitter? I’m this? You’re like, no, there’s my website. And that’s where we connect. 

Viv: Yeah.

Connect with me on email, say hi. And, you know, I always say, if you wanna just email me, you know, just drop me an email. Hello, Viv And I love that, you know, Truly do reply personally, to every email that comes through to my inbox. In the first instance from everybody, because I like saying hi, you know, we’re, we’re people we wanna connect.

And I like to hear what you do. So tell me, share with me your story. 

Sarah: Nice. Thank you so much. I have one last question. Sure. What are you grateful for today or this week? 

Viv: Oh, I’ve done [00:44:00] my gratitude diary this morning. I was really grateful that my children both slept all night last night in their own beds because they have not been sleeping well over the last couple of weeks, I’ve saying to Sarah they’ve been ill.

So I was really grateful to. Good sleep last night to help help me kind of prepare for today. And that seems really selfish, but it’s real. Oh, 

Sarah: about it. It’s so important. Like if we’re not taken care of, then we can’t take care of others, first of all, and who’s gonna do our 

Viv: business. Exactly. And I had, you know, my, my eldest is not quite six yet.

She’s still five. We’ve had nearly six years of no sleep. So you know, they were never great sleepers. My, well, my eldest has never been a great sleeper, so she she’s, she is a lot better now. So I’m always grateful when they sleep all night. 

Sarah: yeah, hang in there. 

Viv: it’s fine. It’s you know, and I like that they come and they feel comfortable coming to get me and say, I just need a, you know, my youngest style say why you out open?

She goes, I just need a mama. At three o’clock in the morning. I’m like, I can’t send you [00:45:00] away. Can I, you know, have if you need so, yeah, that’s my gratitude. 

Sarah: Thank you so much for being on the humane marketing 

Viv: show. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you everybody.[00:46:00] 

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