In this week’s episode, I talk to Amy Bonsall about the P of People, precisely people flourishing at work.
Amy founded Nau and developed its core offerings by drawing on her extensive experience in designing for mental wellbeing and for communities, as well as her experience advising teams and leaders across 100s of companies in industries from tech to financial services to healthcare to agriculture to retail.
Previously, Amy was an executive at IDEO, where she spent a decade leading the creation of new businesses for companies across Europe, Australia, Asia, and the US, living much of that time outside the US. And as the executive leading new ventures at Old Navy, she co-led the creation of a billion-dollar new business, focused on body equity.
In this episode, we talk mainly about people in Corporate jobs and I know that is possibly not your situation as my audience is made of more entrepreneurs. But it’s maybe the situation of your clients, friends, and family. I think it’s such a timely topic to discuss because we’re at the beginning of a huge work transformation after the two years we went through. The great resignation is a testimony to that."You help people by recognizing where they are and then taking them one step further" – Amy Bonsall @amy_bonsall @sarahsantacroce #humanemarketing Click To Tweet
In this episode, you’ll learn about flourishing at work as well as…
- Why people are NOT flourishing at work
- The main reasons for their disengagement from work
- The mental consequences of this situation
- The opportunity and where we can go from here
- Amy’s idea of a flourishing workplace
- And much more…
Connect with Amy on:
Marketing Like We’re Human – Sarah’s book
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Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Amy. So good to talk to you today. I can’t wait to dive into this topic. We’ve been talking already beforehand, so really excited.
Amy: Likewise and it’s so, so fun to be on your podcast. Thanks for having me, Sarah.
Sarah: Thank you. Yeah. So we want to talk about the P for people of my humane marketing Mandalah and in our conversations, it’s really about people flourishing at work that is kind of your specialty.
Right? And I think before we get started, maybe you can tell us a little bit how that became your specialty. How did you get into this field?
Amy: Yeah. Well, just to start with the P part of it, I spent a decade as a human centered designer at the design company called IDEO. And there, we just really learned how to understand people and what their needs are.
And one of the things that we always believed and practiced was. You help people by recognizing where they are and then taking them one step [00:01:00] further, not by starting with what, you know, they might hope, or you might hope is their ideal aspiration. And so that’s really the Genesis of my corporate training and my professional training.
And I’m just applying that at work. One of the things I had the chance to do. Consulting career was work all over the world and with companies all over the world. And I saw the same challenges all over the world, which is that we are not flourishing at work. It is hard to flourish at work and there are cultural challenges that make that hard.
And I say culture kind of quite broadly. It’s not American culture. It’s not, you know, Silicon valley corporate culture. It’s the kind of universal workplace culture that we’ve developed over. Right. So that’s really the Genesis of how I got this.
Sarah: Yeah, so it’s so good when you said, you know kind of take people from where they are.
I think it makes me think of my work with selling and how often we want them to sell kind of [00:02:00] this future version of themselves instead of acknowledging where they are first. So it, this idea, this concept applies to. I guess so many different things right. In, in, in design and it applies to sales and marketing probably as well.
So, so interesting. And the other thing you said is this idea of, of culture. And, and, and yeah, I’m, we’re going to go into that idea a little bit more the work culture that we’ve created over. What is it the last, what would you say 20, 50 years? How
Amy: long? Probably 50, 75 years. We’ve created this culture of dry, which is great in so many ways.
But it, it creates this sense that if we’re not exhausted, we’re not succeeding and that’s kind of paradigm that we need to break in order to flourish. Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s almost like We created, you know, the, the, the, the last kind of breakthrough was the industrial revolution. And so that’s [00:03:00] kind of, we were very proud to create this really deep work ethics and got to work.
And, and, and even to schools, if we think. You know, we’re going to be talking about work spaces, but if you think about the schools, I often have this conversation with fellow parents. It’s like the schools have never changed since the industrial revolution. And we’re still teaching the kids as if they were like little soldiers who have to eventually go to, to work.
And it’s just like, ah, it’s so frustrating at times. Do you feel frustrated in your work sometimes as well because you. I wish you could go faster.
Amy: Oh, all my every day I wish I could go faster. And I think, you know, we’re going to talk about some practical things that you can do in your workplace or any of your listeners can do.
But I often crave, like, I think we need a cultural revolution here or revolution is the right word. We really need to create a new [00:04:00] paradigm in the workplace. And in fact, one of what’s so interesting. You’re right. We started with this. Industrial revolution sort of belief in increased productivity what’s been proven.
More recently is that, you know, when we are balanced, when we’re balanced, when we are flourishing, when we are not giving everything to work, that’s when it actually goes better. Productivity increases, efficiency, increases client satisfaction, customer satisfaction increases. And, but it’s counterintuitive for us.
Because I think of what our culture is. Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah, yeah. So, so much. So, I mean, even I was sharing with on LinkedIn about, you know, the recent Morocco trip and I shared about feeling even on vacation, this urge of. Going to the next thing. Right. We had this eight day trips through Morocco and I was like, oh, it felt like, oh, I have to go to the next city and, you know, see more things.
And then we just actually [00:05:00] decided, okay, let’s arrest for two days and coincidence or serendipity wanted it. The place we were at was called and in Arabic or verbiage language, that actually means rest place. Well, if that’s not a sign to, you know, just stress, but yeah. Even on vacation, we’re like, oh, chasing after the next thing.
And, and that reminds me of something you said during our pre-call is this kind of this visual of the hamster wheel of many of your clients feel like they’re, they’re spinning in this hamster wheel and it’s almost kind of like a surreal world that they’re spinning in. So. Yeah, when that comes up, how do you help them with, I guess, change of perspective and, and yeah.
Some tools. How do you work with clients who give you
Amy: that answer? Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the things I was reflecting on our last conversation too, and that image, one of the things that’s been [00:06:00] so powerful for me over the past couple of years as I’ve worked in this, you know, a full-time in this space is this.
And that so many of us feel like we’re alone. We’re all individually. Suffering from something that others seem not to be. And one of the things that I do in my work when I work with teams and companies is I’ll spend a lot of time one-on-one with, with people inside the organization and then I’ll play back to them.
Here are the things that are barriers to flourishing in your organization. Here are the things that are supportive. And when I play back the barriers, so often I get this comment. Oh, I thought it was just me, you know, I didn’t realize other people were suffering. And I think that’s part of where this hamster hamster wheel image comes from is this idea that I’m alone fighting the good fight against against this culture that everyone else is thriving in, but we aren’t thriving.
So I think that’s the first thing is just recognizing. The collective challenge that we all have, and the fact that it’s not [00:07:00] a unique individual one, and then therein lies the answer for me. I very much believe. That community is the sort of counterweight or the support to flourishing at work, we support we’ve flourished through our connections with other people.
And so that’s often what we’ll do is we’ll start with a community, being a working team, be it a leadership team be it a team of people at middle management. And just identify, like, what’s one thing that they want to do to support their sense of flourishing, and then we do it together.
Sarah: Yeah, it seems so simple, right?
It seems so simple because it’s like, well, all these people are there. You know, you have all these colleagues so just get together with them and share what you’re feeling and that you’re, you know, feeling this idea of. Loneliness or being in a hamster wheel. And yet I think part of that [00:08:00] industrial revolution training is, has been like, no, you just gotta power through it and you have to just wear your mask and do your spiel and kind of, you know, embraced us role because at work that’s how you behave.
D is that the hardest part to get people to actually, you know, learn how to be in community?
Amy: So I think we all have the natural instinct to be in community. I think we’ve all realized that especially over the last two years when we haven’t been together. So we have that natural instinct in that capability.
What’s hard actually is turning it from just community about how do we achieve the next task or get the next thing done or shift. Brought up to how do we take some of that time and talk about how we work? What we focus on or I focus on when I help people is like, let’s have a conversation about how you’re working, not just what you’re working on.
And that’s like, it is simple actually. And it’s also very, very it feels very indulgent [00:09:00] to take the time to talk about how we work. But absolutely it, you know, small changes can make a big.
Sarah: Yeah, you’re so right. It’s this idea of just like I shared about the pausing on vacation, we just don’t want to take the time to do something that feels like we’re doing nothing.
It’s like, why would we, why are we talking about, you know, how we wanna, how we work instead of what the next thing we need to accomplish. And I also. When you talked, I thought, well, that’s true in the workplace. And I definitely see it in my husband’s company, but I would even say that even in the entrepreneurial space, we have become these kind of loan wolves and, and you know, everybody on their own.
And even though we say that we have, you know, Facebook groups and all these social media networks to kind of be in touch, even there, I [00:10:00] feel like. It’s still not this offense, that connection where we actually help each other. So I, I do feel like we can’t just say, oh, it’s all the corporate stuff. That’s not doing a good job.
I think even in the entrepreneurial space we need to kind of pause and say, okay, let’s really collaborate. And co-create because I know. I think that we have been doing that. And for us, there really is no excuse, right? Where in the corporate world, maybe, you know, someone up there creates the culture and then, and then, you know, you just live in that culture for us.
We actually have the privilege to be able to create that. So have you seen that also, you know, in kind of your entrepreneurial
Amy: fields, that there’s a shift happening there too? You know, so much of what you said just resonated with me right now. And one of the things that I think ties corporate culture and entrepreneurial culture together is the broader culture that we’re living in.
And again, I mean that quite broad, I spent a [00:11:00] big chunk of my career outside of the U S and I saw. In Asia. I saw it in Australia. I saw it in Europe as well as in the U S but culturally, it feels bad if we’re not pushing, pushing, pushing. And that is what creates that ripple effect in big companies. But it’s also what creates this drive in us to keep going as entrepreneurs and to not stop and reflect as much as we know we should.
I mean, how did it feel? Took a time to pause on your vacation. Right? It feels good. Doesn’t it? It
Sarah: does. Yeah. I, like we said before, the call, it feels like at the, the first two days it’s like, oh really? Am I just really unplugging? And it feels weird, but then once you do, it’s like, oh, this. Life is all about let’s face it, that that’s where, you know, the, the, the memories happen.
That’s where you create memories for your kids and in your family in not in the business exchanges so
Amy: [00:12:00] much. Right? So we know intuitively when we have this felt sense that pausing is good for us. And yet culturally, we have this. You know, this voice that comes in and sounds like our own voice in our own head that says, you’ve gotta be pushing harder, you’ve gotta be working faster.
And so the first thing is just kind of acknowledging that there’s a tension there, right? And that’s that’s where I landed on this concept of flourishing at work, you know, originally I was playing around with different ways in different, you know, versus a different language. But flourishing really spoke to me.
And I’ll tell you why one it’s. So scientists have studied what makes people flourish and I love that there’s science behind this. We know what makes us feel good. But the thing that really connected with me for flourishing, and I’m curious if it resonates with you too. The idea that flourishing encompasses how we achieve, how we connect and how we recharge.
It really kind of says, all of these things are important to making us feel [00:13:00] good. You can’t have achievement without recharge. You can’t have recharged without achievement and you can’t have any of them without connection. And so sort of recognizing that those are all pieces of the puzzle that are important is, is how it.
Help others and myself, frankly, as well too, to get the sense of flirty. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: W what I just saw as the image of a flower and, you know, these
Amy: different pedals
Sarah: that, like you said, pieces of the puzzles. And I was like, yeah. And then kind of flourishing the flower, you know, pieces, different pedals basically, then that all are needed for us to, to flourish.
That’s so true. Yeah. So, so what’s the opportunity where, you know, w w what can we do as entrepreneurs and, and what are you working on with companies to, to create that shift? And maybe, you know, some companies already recognized the need for the chef, and then there’s probably others who [00:14:00] are still.
You know, lost in the industrial revolution and they haven’t even recognized the shift. Where would you say? Kind of a percentage percentage-wise how many companies have already recognized something needs to change?
Amy: It’s a great question. And one, I’ll start with your, your prompt about what’s the opportunity.
I love that you ask it that way. You know, I, as I said earlier, I was trained as a designer and as designers, we’re always trained to look for the opportunity that that sort of sits in the problem. Right? So a lot of like, there’s a lot of talk lately about burnout. There’s a lot of talk about language. And and you know, some studies will say up to 75% of people have felt overwhelmed stress burnout in their workplaces.
So the, the, the issue is there, the opportunity for me is to flip it around and say, well, okay, that’s one thing. Burnout is one thing, how do we flourish? Let’s focus [00:15:00] on how do we flourish? What does it look like? Four-ish do companies recognize this. Absolutely. I would say many of them do. I’d say.
What they grapple with is how can we be effective here? And a lot of, a lot of attention has been put on wellbeing programs in the workplace and what these can actually do unintentionally is exacerbate the problem because they’re, they’re offered as individual resources. Here’s something for you.
Employee acts to go and do. And what, what that isn’t acknowledging is that there’s this communal thing. There’s this culture that we’ve all created and we’ve all kind of understood and accepted in our workplaces, whether they’re startups or large companies. And that that culture is what makes it hard for us to make the change.
And so I have really tactical things that people can do to start flip flipping this. But but yes, acknowledging that there’s there’s a real need is the first step. And I think a lot of companies are, they. [00:16:00] With the grapple with is how can we tactically make the change? Yeah,
Sarah: you’re so right about the individual solutions and they’re probably, you know, they’re probably not wrong.
Their first step. They’re a nice to have, but they are not going to. Solve the problem of you know, for example, the great resignation people won’t stay just because they now have a weekly meditation class in the company. Right. So it’s really the culture that the communal aspect of the workplace that, that needs to change.
And I don’t, I think younger generations are just requiring that. So yeah. The other thing. I guess that we’re also having to solve as yes, we want communities. And yet the trend is that we’re all going, not going back to the actual office and workspace. So we did, it’s like an additional [00:17:00] challenge.
People are gonna still work from home. And so we need to somehow create community while being all over the place and not necessarily to get.
Amy: No, absolutely. That’s so true. And you know, I just want to comment on your point about the younger generations are demanding that like, when you look into the data, it is generation.
Z and the millennials who are more likely to be demanding change you know, us, us older folks and gen X, et cetera recognize it and need it as well. We’re, we’re just less likely as a generation to insist on it. And I love that these younger generations are because I believe that that it’s the change that we need in our organizations.
So even if, you know, as leaders, we’re hesitant to. May cultural changes, recognizing that the younger generations coming up are, are not going to accept the status quo, I think is really good business motivation. So, so that I think is really [00:18:00] compelling opportunity for us in terms of like, what can we tactically do?
And, and your point that many of us are not going back to the office. I think that there’s, there’s still so much that we can, that we can do even when we’re not physically connected. And one of the biggest things that I talk about with the teams that I work with is this idea of. There are transactional interactions with our colleagues and there are relational interactions with our colleagues.
And so much of what we’ve done over the past two years has lean towards the transactional, right? We’re online. We’re going to just get this thing done that we need to collaborate on. Maybe there’s like two minutes of like, how was your weekend before that? But it really leans transaction. And what I believe that we need to do is to add in, you know, more dedicated relational moments and those we can do together when we’re in person, that’s more natural for us, but there are also really easy ways to do that when we’re physically [00:19:00] separated.
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that distinction between transactional and relational. And what I often use is, you know, the doing and the being the yin and the yang and, and, and totally, yeah. In, in, in our community, the humane marketing circle, we really want to come as humans to the circle. So, yes, there’s the transactional piece to doing piece, you know, that the marketing advice, but then it’s.
Also about the being, being together as entrepreneurs who want to do marketing ethically and that mothers, I would say just as much as just getting the answer to, you know, what tools should I use for this and that. Right. And, and you’re right. We’re so trained to always want to. The quick fix the next answer, where we didn’t actually realize what we’re missing is also the relationship and the belonging to something bigger to a group, [00:20:00] even so to have companies realize that I think that’s going to be a huge.
Huge change. Like to actually say we value to put time aside for having people create relationships and, and, you know, they have to pay people while this happens. Right. That’s going to be a huge shift. So I’m curious to hear from you. Yeah. If you envision the company of the future where people flourish at work, how does that look like?
Amy: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. And, and I agree, you know, to the first part of your, your comment, like companies do need to invest in and spend time in this. I don’t think that’s different than it ever was. I think we always had our social hours and, you know, our conferences, et cetera, et cetera. I think we need to be more intentional now.
And I actually think that’s a really good thing. And so if we look five years ahead I think that the company that [00:21:00] flourishes the most is the one that is most intentional about relationship building alongside the transactional stuff. It’s funny. You were, you were on vacation last week. I took my first business trip in two years last week.
And as I was going through the business trip, I was like, it just feels different than, than it used to. And I. I started polling, you know, folks on social media. I was like, have you, have you traveled for business? And if so, like what’s different now than it used to be. And one person came back and said, you know, it’s all about relationships now.
And I’ve noticed that when I travel for business and connect with my colleagues personally, it makes all the transactional stuff so much easier. And so. That, you know, that’s a key part of the business of the future. Will we be together or apart? I think that’s going to vary by business. Some businesses will absolutely want to be together every day.
Some will not. But I think it’s super interesting, this comment on like how relationships make the [00:22:00] transactional stuff easier. And I do really believe that’s a key point. Of of what the future successful businesses will look like. The other thing that I think is really important is having conversations.
We spoke to this earlier about how we work just iterating on like what’s working and what’s not. You know, when we went into the pandemic, we all flipped mode almost overnight as we come out of the pandemic. I think it’s going to be a longer journey to figuring out how we work together successfully, what it looks like to collaborate in this new environment.
And so just creating space, regular space for having conversations about the, how, not just the, what that will be a hallmark of a flourishing company.
Sarah: Yeah, that really resonates with me. And, and I think you’re right, it’s this, it’s a way from, you know, business trips to conferences and all these kind of big meetings and agendas.
We can do those online [00:23:00] now, right. People are not going to travel for that anymore. Or I think also just going to be more like outings and. Things and, you know, just like, yeah. Getting to know the humans behind the zoom screen in a way. Right. So,
Amy: yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, Airbnb, I don’t know if you caught this news cause you weren’t offline and I hope you didn’t actually, but I did
Yeah. Yeah. But they announced that people can now work from anywhere.
Amy: Right. People can work from anywhere forever. And I think two things were really important in that announcement. One is they said, expect to come together once a quarter with your colleagues. They’re still figuring out what that looks like, but they’re acknowledging that the there’s this really urgent need for people to come together physically.
Yeah too, and I think this relates to their business, but I think it’s interesting for all of us. They said up to three months per year, you can work from any other country in the world. [00:24:00] And also that’s about the relational, right? That’s about for them immersing with their customers and understanding their lives.
And so you know, I think that companies that are doubling down on this relational aspect will do well. Yeah,
Sarah: I think they’re definitely setting an example for you know, for the future of business. And I’m sure a lot of. Young generations will either. They’re like, that’s exactly what we want. We want to work for a company.
And, and, and I think we’ve proven many times over that the, this myths that we had before, the pandemic, that people don’t work the same amount or same hours, because they’re at home. I mean, we we’ve seen that, that that is absolutely not true. So, so yeah, there’s. There’s definitely good things that hopefully come out from this kind of weird times that we have gone through.
And I’m glad for Airbnb to Jen is just kind of show the way. Yeah,
Amy: absolutely. And you know, two things I want to kind of [00:25:00] underlying here. I believe so. One of the things that I studied is. What, what makes behavior change successful? And you know, if you think about new year’s resolutions, for instance, those are things that we always want to do.
And yet how often are we actually successful behavior? Change is hard, even when we want it. And we’re in the midst of the biggest work. Upheaval and change and our, and our lifetimes really. But one of the things that makes change successful is the shock of being in sort of this transition state and being in in this space where everything is kind of thrown up into the air.
If you think in your own life, one did the biggest change happened. It wouldn’t be surprising if it was around, you know, a move from one, you know, one place to another or a life change. You know, having kids getting married, graduating from college, all of these like big moments are when we make the biggest change.
And so right now, as a [00:26:00] society, we’re in one of those big moments collectively. And so we have this real opportunity to create change right now. And I think it’s sort of important for all of them. To recognize that and to take advantage of it. Cause I think we could slip back into the way things used to be, but I don’t think many of us want to.
And so it’s, it’s an opportunity we have in this moment of, of ambiguity is that we’re all more malleable than we ever will be either before or after.
Sarah: And it somehow requires also. Some work on ourselves. We can’t just say, oh, you know, the company and blame it all on the company. Cause I feel like even for ourselves while we need to, you know, show some flexibility, more flexibility, maybe we need to even be okay with a pay cut things.
We value now more because of the transformation we have gone through, they don’t always come with more money. So this [00:27:00] idea of, you know, do I really want this promotion? Is that, that my next step? Or, or, or maybe do I value things differently? So I think it requires also some self-refer reflection and maybe changing some priorities in their own life.
Amy: Oh, I a thousand percent agree. And actually, you know, if the first thing that folks need to contemplate is how do they add in more of the relationship relational interactions? The second thing I I’m advocating for. Consider what agency you have and use that agency. And I think this is true startup or big company, but I think it’s really easy to get into the situation where you think this is the way the world is, or this is the way things are.
But absolutely we have the chance no matter where we sit to kind of recognize the amount of change that we can create. And to grasp that and to [00:28:00] do something about it. And absolutely flexibility is one of the, sort of the biggest things that comes up over and over again, as, as a desire for my clients.
But what does that look like? What does it mean? What, what do you really want by flexibility? And often it boils down to things that are not financially related, right? I want to be able to show up for my kids’ soccer games. Like I have been able to, I want to be able to be here when my child is sick.
Things like that I think are much more internally intrinsically motivated than extrinsic extrinsic. And and that’s part of the conversation I think we can have together is like, what do we need to be able to work healthfully and well together.
Sarah: Yeah. And it really is such an opportunity to, to have this time of change due to sit down and have this reflection.
Right. Because before we were just in our trans mode and, and just, you know, work and sleep and work again, [00:29:00] now we actually have to time to think, well, what do I want out of yeah, out of my time here on this earth,
Amy: I like to say that I think. Every person, probably over the age of two in the world has had some sort of epiphany over the past two years.
Right. They have this chance to reflect on what they really want. And it’s, it’s helpful to remember that we’re all in that space together right now. And so one better in our lives to talk about change and what we really want out of how we work together. Then.
Sarah: Yeah, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me.
It’s I just really. I’m so delighted that we are living in this time of change. Like, I couldn’t be happier that we are, you know, on earth right now to, to live through this change. And I, yeah, obviously I, I hope we’ll see the other of the change, but I’m just so grateful also for [00:30:00] people like you, who help companies Yeah, pivot to you through this.
So I would, I’d be delighted if you shared, you know, where people can find out more about you and how you work with companies, but also the smaller startups,
Amy: right? Yeah, absolutely. I’ll share that one, one thought before I do you mentioned this, that we’re all in this state of change and an exciting, and also it’ll, it’ll eventually settle down and I just want to acknowledge that change is very uncomfortable for us, whether or not we, we want it.
And so just recognizing that it is a period of great excitement and possibility. D it’s deeply unsettling. So so if it feels unsettling, that’s, that’s part of the human condition. Yes, I work with companies. I have a company called now and it is all about helping people to flourish at work.
And I work with everyone from startups to huge, huge corporations on this. And we provide [00:31:00] programs and also bespoke support for those countries. I can be found on all the social channels. Well, except for Facebook, I don’t, I don’t Facebook right now. But active on LinkedIn and Instagram. And I will share a link for, for an article that I’ve written that really, it it’s about.
How people can flourish as they start a new job during a pandemic, but actually it applies to anyone. And it has some really just really practical tips for how to increase, especially that relational aspect that we talked about.
Sarah: I’ll put that in the show notes
Amy: for sure. Great. Thank you. And then also and I’ll share a link to this, but just an offer.
I would be very happy to chat one-on-one with folks who are. Recognizing they want to do something to change their companies. Focus on flourishing. And so I’ll share a link to that too. Don’t hesitate to reach out just my gift to your [00:32:00] listeners. How can, how can we together identify a few steps that you can, you can make to, to create practical?
Sarah: Wonderful. Amazing offer. Thank you so much, Amy. You know that I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? This one?
Amy: Yeah. So much actually one I’ve I’ve been sick recently. I have long COVID and I’m feeling better. And so I just, I think anytime you go through a health incident, like.
It’s it’s just a reminder of how important health is, and I’m just such a believer in sort of the connection of mind and body and, and, and the health that, you know, the importance of health and, and everything would be so grateful for that. You’re feeling better. Thank you. But I also just want to say I’m so grateful for the community that I have, and I think that is what keeps me flourishing.
You know, I’m grateful for. For the other [00:33:00] entrepreneurs like yourself, who who I’m lucky enough to be friends with, who are, are honest and vulnerable with me about what their challenges are. And likewise, I can be with them. We all need these safe spaces to be able to kind of grapple with, with what’s easy and hard about growing a business and some so, so grateful for my dear friends who who share their journeys.
Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. It’s so important to have that community of close friends or, or, or other entrepreneurs who like you say, show up real, like, where are you feel like, oh, this is real. I can tell the difference.
Amy: Yeah, easy. So it’s so great to have that, that support.
Sarah: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be a guest on the humane marketing podcast.
Amy, it’s been a great pleasure to talk about.
Amy: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for inviting me in, and I’m such a fan of your work as well, Sarah, so thank you for, including me [00:34:00] in your journey.