Creating a Customer-Centric Business

Stacy Sherman

Today’s conversation fits under the P of People. Your people. Your clients. Your customers. It’s also in a way a follow up from my earlier episode around customer experience, go check it out at

I heard Stacy speak on another podcast and really liked what she shared about making the customer experience more human. We are diving deep into why creating a customer-centric business starts with the customer experience.

Stacy Sherman is a customer experience corporate leader, keynote speaker, author, and podcaster about Doing Customer Experience Right. She’s created a Heart & Science™ framework that accelerates customer loyalty, referrals, and revenue.

"We need to use technology to enhance experiences, not replace the important human relationships." – Stacy Sherman @stacysherman @sarahsantacroce #humanemarketing Click To Tweet

In this episode, you’ll learn about why creating a customer-centric business starts with the customer experience and…

  • How Stacy defines CX or Customer Experience
  • How Customer Experience is different from Customer Service
  • How we can deliver a Human first Customer experience
  • The importance of micro moments
  • Stacy’s view on how business (and CX) will evolve over the next decade
  • and so much more.

Stacy’s Resources

Stacy’s Website

Stacy’s Podcast

Connect with Stacy on:





Sarah’s Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

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(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We’re Human – Sarah’s book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at

Thanks for listening!

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Imperfect Transcript of the show

I will provide a transcript of the show whenever I can, but please be informed that this is non-edited, so far from perfect. On the positive side you might get a chuckle from reading it, because these robot transcripts are often quite funny 🙂

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Stacy. So pleased to meet you and talk to you today. Welcome to the show.

[00:00:09] Stacy: Thank you. I’m happy to be.

[00:00:11] Sarah: Yeah, it’s great to connect with you. I remember I heard you on the conscious business podcast. I think it’s conscious business talking about, you know, your main topic, which we’ll dive into, but really glad you’re here.

[00:00:28] Cause I think it’s a really great topic. And often probably also one that people are confused about. So let’s kind of lift some of this confusion. So let’s start with your company because your company name is doing CX right. And for people in your field, probably everybody knows. Okay. That’s what this means, but I’ll be very honest.

[00:00:54] I had to look it up. What does CX stand for? So for my listeners, maybe some of them know maybe others don’t so why don’t you explain kind of like what the diff definite, what the word stands for CX, do you have relation and then. The definition of that

[00:01:12] Stacy: is yes. That’s a great starting point. And thank you for looking up CX cause I wonder how many people actually take the step to do that.

[00:01:20] And I’m all about doing, not just talking. So CX stands for customer experience and customer experience in a broad sense is the entire. Way people interact with a company with a brand, which brand are actually people and their micro moments from when you learn about a company to when you actually buy and you get that product or service and you use it.

[00:01:56] And you pay for it and you get help. And there’s all these micro moments in, in, in totality. That’s the customer experience. And as practitioners, we carefully design the entire journey from an outside in perspective. Based on what customers or your target audience wants and needs, not based on what you think they want or need.

[00:02:26] So that’s the highest level to explain. And I want to also clarify something that people don’t understand. Customer experience is not customer service

[00:02:39] Sarah: customers. That’s where the confusion part comes in. That’s exactly what I meant. Like these words, they sound similar, but yes, they’re completely different.

[00:02:50] So explain to us. Yeah.

[00:02:53] Stacy: So customer service has been around forever. And that’s traditionally what you think about when you get stuck using a product or you need help with a service or start using something that you just bought. You typically will call an 800 number or you’ll go to a website and chat you’re you’re asking for help.

[00:03:13] And so that’s an, a very important part. Of the journey, but that’s one piece. So if, for example, buying the product is easy and getting set up, we think about an apple iPhone, right? They make it easy to use. But if you get stuck and you can’t figure something out, you will call customer service customer care.

[00:03:45] So the important thing to understand is that customer experience is the totality, the holistic experience that makes you want to buy from a brand and tell others customer service is the part where you’re getting help. Make sense.

[00:04:00] Sarah: Yeah, totally. Also kind of like if you think of the whole customer journey, customer service is usually after people already bought, maybe in some cases it’s like, well, you know, you call a number to ask specifics about you know, how does this compare to this product or things like that.

[00:04:20] But oftentimes it’s after the purchase where the customer experience, a lot of it is actually also before.

[00:04:30] Stacy: Yes, but there’s both. So you might need to call customer service, but they call it more of a sales channel, not service. So service you’re right is, is post-sale, but there definitely is a department that handles the presale questions so that you feel comfortable and trust to give a brand new.

[00:04:53] Right.

[00:04:54] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. I want to come back to this idea of micro-moments because I think that is, that is a golden nugget right there and we don’t, we usually. Think of micro-moments. I think when we are in touch with the brand or you know us online business owners when we’re in touch with a website, but every kind of experience is based on these micro-moments.

[00:05:21] So I want to put an anchor there and come back to it. But the other thing. Maybe some entrepreneurs. And I told you offline that my audience is mainly entrepreneurs and then some CMOs in, in smaller to mid-sized organizations. Maybe we have this belief that, you know, customer experience the whole CXO thing.

[00:05:44] That’s kind of like. Bigger companies like it’s like, I don’t have a department. It’s just me. So is it less important then? Let’s say for the big brands,

[00:05:58] Stacy: absolutely not less important. It is just as important. And in fact, easier for smaller brands because there’s less silent. So you actually can do more and use CX as your brand differentiator faster than a big company.

[00:06:21] And it doesn’t require a big budget to do so you can literally bring everybody to your room virtual or in person, and start off with whiteboard. What is the customer journey that we want to create? Or what is it in place right now? How do people first learn that you exist? That’s typically done by marketing, but what are the ways they learn and how can they buy from you?

[00:06:55] Is it just from a sales channel? Salesforce? Is it a retail location? Is it online? Digital? Is it, you have to call an 800 number. So you define those different ways and you go across the customer journey and you create that co-create that with your team, it could be a team of one person who owns your billing, your pet, your finance, one person handles the complaints and questions CA customer care.

[00:07:25] So bring those people together. Design. And then where the magic happens is then you bring it to your customers or target audience. And then you say to them, look, this is how we designed it, but does this meet your needs? So for example, let’s say people typically learn about your brand. Or about solutions that your, that your brand actually solves for whatever pain point or need let’s say customers say, well, I typically read a certain publication and you’re not there.

[00:08:04] You’re, you’re spending your money on social media. But then your audience is actually in reading this technology magazine, let’s say, well, you need to know that. And you wouldn’t know it unless you design and then validate what you’ve created with real. Right. That makes

[00:08:22] Sarah: sense. Yeah. Yeah. And involving your customers, your clients, I guess you could just, you know, ask your existing clients or send out a survey to your email list or, or things like that, right?

[00:08:37] Stacy: Yes. So you want to do persona. Upfront. So who is your typical buyer? Who do you want to be? Your typical buyer? Who are they? What do they look like? What do they, what do they care about? What’s their typical financial income, you know, the demographics, then you know who you’re going. Who’s your target audience.

[00:08:58] You can’t appeal to everybody. And then you design that journey for that persona, that. That you either have, or want to seek. And those are the people that you asked. So it doesn’t have, it can be your customer, that’s the easiest path, but you could also go after people who are not your customers and understand what they care about too.

[00:09:25] Sarah: Yeah. You mentioned marketing. And I guess since this is a podcast about marketing, would you say that marketing is the first step in a customer experience? Is it always the first step or are there other micro-moments that could be first steps

[00:09:47] Stacy: generally. I believe it does start with marketing activities because.

[00:09:54] Someone has to be aware that your company exists and awareness is through marketing promotion branding. So awareness and interest is generally the first place, but if you’re an established brand for you’ve been in business for a long time, it may not require. And then it may jump to the next part of the journey.

[00:10:22] So it depends where people are in their mindset and, and what they know about you. So

[00:10:30] Sarah: take us through maybe a typical journey and then. I can really add in also maybe, or draw the parallel between, you know, what I know my audience is and what they typically do, because we’re really, a lot of us are online business owners.

[00:10:49] So sometimes that’s a bit different, but I’d love to have you take us through does typical journey with the micro-moments and then maybe we can draw a parallel to the online world.

[00:11:00] Stacy: Yeah, absolutely. So. You have product X and people will buy it e-commerce or, or your website maybe as a lead generation and someone calls them.

[00:11:14] So, first of all, if you’re brand new and you’re, you’re just opening, it is different than if you’ve been around. But in general you want. Start with how people will know you exist. Is your strategy really going to be word of mouth or is your strategy? You’re going to have some advertising paid advertising or retargeting to your website to get people back.

[00:11:42] So first define how are people going to know you exist? And. Develop a plan so that you can make people know you exist. Now you also may exist, but you have a new promotion. Well, same principle. You need to generate the awareness. So that’s the beginning. And how are the ways that people are going to learn and know about it?

[00:12:07] Define that then how are they going to buy? You have to make it as easy as possible that they can buy. Because if it’s hard, if they’re buying online and their credit card, doesn’t, there’s a problem with the credit card and they can’t enter, or they can’t add to cart. You bet they’re going to abandon and go somewhere else.

[00:12:31] So make sure you define how are you going to buy and that you make it easy, you quality check and you do AB testing so that you. Give different people, different scenarios on the website experience. For example, one small change by a, you know add to cart might say the call to action versus learn more.

[00:12:57] Well, which one actually makes them proceed, do a lot of testing and learning and defining and measuring. And then you also want to put measures in place. So if they abandoned cart, You get to understand why, why did they abandon cart? And that will help you also be able to optimize your website so we can spend an hour just on conversion optimization, but then once they get their product or service, you also, that’s a big micro moment.

[00:13:30] So now you want to really onboard. Well, what does that look like? Are you sending them how to emails? Are you sending them videos? Are you calling them and saying, do you need help? We’re here for you. Apple does a, I know nobody’s apple, but a as big as apple, but what they do is easy. They give you a half hour when you buy a product a half hour to set up a call at your convenience to walk through your process.

[00:14:01] That’s that’s a wow moment, but actually it’s just the basics doing it. Right? So that you, you loved what you bought. Anyone can do that. And so again, I’m walking through different points, but these are ways that you can create a great experience from beginning to end. There’s no end because eventually, maybe they’ll buy more from.

[00:14:23] If they, if they enjoy the experience, they buy an experience and they buy on feelings much more than price.

[00:14:30] Sarah: Yeah, I love that. And I’m just going to kind of translate it to how it would be for a service-based business owner. You know, a coach, a consultant, a solo preneur in healing or anything like that.

[00:14:45] It is really very much the same thing, except maybe we use other terms so that the experience is still. You know, find out how you’re going to bring people to your website or to your offering. And that can be you’re active on Facebook. You’re a, you know, an on like an online networker on an in-person network or you’re a podcast guest you know, there’s so many different ways, obviously in marketing, how you bring people to your site.

[00:15:14] And then from there, like you said, Stacy, it’s it’s about, well, what’s their next step. Make sure that people know what their next step is. Maybe it’s they download your free offer. From there. You lead them through a series of emails where you mentioned your product and or service. And then from there.

[00:15:35] Make it easy for them so they can pay. And then yeah, once they paid what’s the next step. So it’s, it’s like this whole flow of things that really, it’s almost like you have to experience it once yourself go through that whole cycle yourself. So you really know how does that feel on the other end? Was that easy?

[00:15:58] Was it difficult? I really, yeah. I really feel that. It’s does flow where things just naturally happened. One thing after the other.

[00:16:10] Stacy: Right. So yes. What you said is correct. Walk in your customer’s shoes, go through the flow. Yeah, but that’s not it. That’s where companies fall short. They’re good at doing they’re good at doing, creating what they think people want.

[00:16:28] They they’re good at thinking, oh, this is easy from their own. But they S they don’t take the most important step. And that is validate what they’ve designed, what they created in that flow, that system, that funnel, that it actually is easy by the customer’s report card, not your own. That’s where people forget.

[00:16:56] So they’ll design without knowing it’s a journey map, they’ll design it in their own way, but then they fail to actually validate and then tweak it, edit it, optimize it in an agile way. So, so that was half the picture. What you shared the other piece is you can. Just do it from an inside out perspective.

[00:17:23] It has to be the outside customer informing your business decisions.

[00:17:28] Sarah: Okay. So, so yes. Do you have to walk through it maybe once yourself, but then you want to hear and listen to what the customer tells us. You know, this was really difficult or, or, you know yeah. Then you basically, I guess, wait for some problems to happen.

[00:17:47] So that’s when you know, oh, this thing needs improvement or high. Do you find out, well, I guess you ask,

[00:17:54] Stacy: but, well, that’s a great question because no, you don’t want to be reactive. You want to be proactive. Yeah. So absolutely they’re structured and unstructured ways to do that. And what I mean is structured is yes.

[00:18:10] You ask, you send a survey, you do one-on-one interviews, but then there’s the unstructured insights. So you look at social media, you look at ratings and reviews. You look at multiple sources of the voice of customer. And that’s how, you know, how they’re feeling and what they, how they perceive your brand and that’s how you make decisions.

[00:18:43] Sarah: So it, it really is a mix of, we talk a lot about the right brain and the left brain on this show, and it really is. To me, it sounds like partly right brain, because you want to make the customer feel good, but then it’s also left brain because you need to have the right metrics and you have to have the conversion rates and all of these numbers that as entrepreneurs, sometimes we’re afraid of them.

[00:19:15] But it sounds like if you want to get it right, that’s what you need to do.

[00:19:19] Stacy: Yes. Left-brain right-brain and similarly, I created a framework and I call it heart and science.

[00:19:28] Sarah: Yeah. Same thing. I love that. Yeah. So, so let’s talk more about that. The heart piece. As you know, the name of this podcast is humane marketing that, you know, humane, meaning compassionate and empathy, but also the human aspect.

[00:19:46] So how do we bring more of the human experience into the customer experience?

[00:19:54] Stacy: Well, with the advent of technology that is rapidly speeding to change the world and how we do business. We need to use technology to enhance experiences, not replace the important human relationships. So what I mean by that, let’s say, you’re you have a service that you offer customers.

[00:20:19] Let’s say you’re a therapist and you, you have your own practice. Well, technology’s great to send an automated text message to your client, your patient. Reminder of the appointment, but it doesn’t replace the follow-up. Are you okay with picking up the phone after somebody had a real, let’s say tragedy having the heart to follow up and say, how are you doing that?

[00:20:54] Patient’s going to remember that it would not be a text message to say. Let us know how you are. So that’s where I say, it’s, it’s the blend of technology, but you can’t let go of the heart.

[00:21:08] Sarah: Right? Yeah. I love that. There’s so much we can automate and I’m all for automation. Before we started recording, I told you about the, the process and flow of my podcast and a lot of it is automated, but I would never use automation for yeah.

[00:21:24] The human connection. Right. So. We can use technology. And I think what people, maybe some people who are like, ah, all this technology it’s annoying if they’re annoyed is because that some companies probably abused or overused technology to a certain extent. Have you seen that in certain companies as well, where it just feels.

[00:21:51] I’m not really talking to humans. Everything is automated. I’m talking to bots over there and just kind of gives us this feeling like I’m just a number. Nobody cares.

[00:22:02] Stacy: Absolutely. And worse is you talk to a bot. And then eventually it’s almost like when you call an 800 number and you just kept hitting the button zero to keep getting to some, some human voice.

[00:22:18] So with the worst is that you you’re on a, talking to a bot. You finally get a human and then you have to repeat over. What you already said, so the human doesn’t get the transcript of what you already wrote about right. That’s where technology goes wrong. Yeah.

[00:22:38] Sarah: Yeah. That would be super easy to, you know, send the, that piece of content to the human.

[00:22:45] I mean, that could be easily automated, so totally does not make sense. Yeah. So is that when you come in and. You know, help them read. Yeah. Kind of redo from scratch their whole customer experience journey.

[00:23:03] Stacy: Correct. So it’s really understanding what are you doing today? What’s working from your perspective.

[00:23:09] How do you know it’s working too? What are you measuring? What are you not measuring? And then yes, it’s the validation. With what you have in place through structured and unstructured data that reveals it’s not gut instinct, it’s, it’s factual and looking at the tiny micro moments and small things make huge impacts.

[00:23:36] So it’s important to, in order to become customer centric in order to complete. Not based on price, because if you’re the cost of your service versus someone else is relatively similar relatively, then it is going to be based on the experience there. I always say about Starbucks. I don’t pay for that coffee cause I like paying triple the amount.

[00:24:07] For where I can go to the local shop for $2 less. I’m paying for an experience from the, before I even walked in the store with the app that they have. So that’s where I say see acts and doing it, right. Not just talking about it, not just thinking about it, but really doing it can absolutely drive growth, customer loyalty and advocacy.

[00:24:36] Sarah: Yeah, I don’t really invite the listeners to think about that because it does need some kind of translation skills to say, yeah, I see that in the big business, but how does the supply in my business? And it really does apply. A lot of entrepreneurs, they have, you know, they use a lot of online tools and, you know, the payment system and then these online courses that we’re all used to downloading and, and, and every step can really be customized and personalized.

[00:25:13] And I’m not talking about fake personalizing, like. You know, because people know now that these tools, they all let us put in the first name that doesn’t make it more. Human and my appearance opinion anymore used to maybe, but now we all know all this, this is just a mass email. So how can you, I’ve heard this other guy talking about scale intimacy to me, that’s really also what this is about.

[00:25:41] It’s like, yes, we’re using, you know, the customer experience for all these different customers that we don’t know yet personally, but how can we. Make it kind of feel intimate in a, in a way that feels very personal and human. What do you think about that?

[00:26:02] Stacy: No, your customers. So if you know that they bought, let’s say, I mean, I, I worked at Verizon, so this is the first thing that comes to my head, but equate it to whatever your product or service is.

[00:26:19] If I know that a customer bought an iPhone, I not going to send them emails and marketing about Android products. So the same thing, if you know, whatever you know about your customer, give them the content. The information that is based on what they’re looking for, what they’ve told you, they either told you verbally, or they told you what their wallet and use that.

[00:26:55] Cause if you ignore it, then you’re taking a cookie cutter approach and eventually they’ll leave.

[00:27:02] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never, never take the cookie cutter approach. That’s so sure. So. On this podcast, we’re like really about creating a revolution from the hype-y pushy kind of marketing to a more humane approach to marketing.

[00:27:24] So we’re really like makers. And I be curious to know how you are a change maker in the business world and the world of customer experience.

[00:27:37] Stacy: I love this topic. We could have picked this one alone change, change agents and transformation, and it could be tiny and it could be big. And so customer experience is relatively a new practice in the sense of what we talked about, what it really means, not customer service.

[00:28:00] So I care. That people are doing it right? Because one I’ve had too many as a customer of brands. We all are. I’ve had too many frustrating moments that actually carry me through my day because I spent way too much time trying to get help on a product or try, I got it. And I don’t know how to use it.

[00:28:25] Right. So there’s too much frustration with brands. And then I also, as an employee, Over my career have seen and witnessed employees, not feeling valued and appreciated and included and employees deliver experiences. So I really care in action to be the change agent to change it. Traditional companies, many of them are engineering.

[00:28:58] Many of them are. Just put the customer second unintentionally. And so I am on a mission to change that because then it means that there’s more real authentic connections and satisfaction on a broad scale. So that’s my why. Hm.

[00:29:20] Sarah: How do you see business change going forward? Like obviously we’re heading definitely into an era with even more technology and that can be great, but it can also be not so great depending on, I guess the humans who use it

[00:29:37] Stacy: people it’s awareness and as people it’s awareness and education.

[00:29:42] So you and I, as consumers, you’re starting. Whether conscious or unconscious you’re paying attention to how a brand makes you feel and the feeling is the experience. So as you get more attention and awareness, I mean, I’m sure after this, this session together, you’re going to have an experience and you’re going to reflect those micro moments and then it’s going to make you also.

[00:30:09] Did I want to buy from that brand again? Or will I go elsewhere? And the more that we have these conversations, the more that people and people are, owners of companies and managers, or companies and employees, the more that they’re going to understand, they have a CX job, even if it’s not in their job.

[00:30:31] Sarah: Right. Yeah. Yeah. You’re so right. And I say the same thing about humane marketing. It starts with awareness. It starts with paying attention to how you feel when you know, you’re being marketed to, and it could feel good and most often it doesn’t feel good. And so kind of like. Distancing yourself from those where it doesn’t feel good and, and CX is the same thing.

[00:31:00] Stacy: Yeah. Well, you’ll start to see, I mean, it’s not the Amazons of the world or Zappos of the world. It’s your local coffee shop and it’s your dentist practice. How did they greet you when you call to make an appointment? When you walk in. Into the environment there that’s part of the experience. So you’re going to start, as you become aware and educated, like through my blog and my podcast, righteous and other, other areas of the web it’s it’s customer experience is huge.

[00:31:33] And as you become aware and you start to observe, then you realize you yourself have to do it right. You can’t stay in business otherwise. So what

[00:31:44] Sarah: you’re saying is the change is going to come from the people. I mean, companies are just a group of people, but the change is going to come from the people because the people expect companies to, you know, act in a way that is more human and

[00:32:03] Stacy: humane.

[00:32:04] Yes. You’ll notice it more. And you’ll, you’ll give your money to those brands that make you feel valued that make you feel not like. They’re checking a box and you’re like in a factory and it may take time for, let’s say again, a doctor’s office. It takes time to a few seconds to actually greet you warmly and say, how are you doing as opposed to what’s your name and what time is your appointment?

[00:32:38] You know, to have conversation it’s effort, but gosh, small acts like that. Doing the basics. Right. Just start with that. You’ll see how you feel and then you’ll realize to pay it forward. Yeah.

[00:32:53] Sarah: Can’t wait for this world. I’ll be a good one. I have

[00:33:00] Stacy: to, I, and I have to say that I have so much faith in this because my older kids are coming to me with stories about good and bad customer experience.

[00:33:13] So I really believe the next generation they are, they’re driving the change to

[00:33:21] Sarah: yeah. And I feel like the level of tolerance is lower because we’ve all just, we’re all just tired of, you know, that kind of behavior. So I, I agree with you, the next generation will be like, I’m not buying from that place anymore.

[00:33:41] Stacy: No pay our patients is lower. Our level of satisfaction has to be higher to get her attention.

[00:33:49] Sarah: Yeah. And we’re all just craving to feel good. It’s like who wants to be mistreated by, by a brand? Nobody. Yeah.

[00:33:58] Stacy: No, no. But last thing I will say is that we also have to own the experience when we call. A call center for help that representative on the phone is a person.

[00:34:13] And a lot of times they get abused right by an irate customer. So we also have to own how we show up in the world and how we ask for help. It’s a two way street.

[00:34:29] Sarah: Yeah, totally. Yeah. We, if we want to be treated like humans, then we also need to treat the people on the other side, like humans. Totally. Yeah.

[00:34:40] It, it used to happen a bit more, but it barely happens anymore that I get like a nasty email and return to one of my newsletters or something like that. So it shows you that. Yeah. People know that there’s humans behind these newsletters now. But, but yeah, we need to. It’s like you said, it’s a two way street.

[00:35:04] You can’t just expect something and not do not walk your talk as well. Yeah. This has been great, Stacy. I think I, I learned a lot. I’m sure my listeners that as well, please do share with us where they can find out more about your heart and science framework and more about customer experience and all of that.

[00:35:28] Stacy: Yeah, I welcome that. So doing C X, right? R I G H Listen to my podcasts, all about customer experience and doing it right. And my blog articles, every single one of them has actionable tips. I have written coauthored books and so much more on my, on my website. My newsletter. And I welcome the interaction I’m on every social media channel and yes, Stacy Sherman doing CX right.

[00:36:04] Sarah: Wonderful. I have one last question that I ask all my guests, Stacy, and that is what are you grateful for today? Or desperate?

[00:36:13] Stacy: My puppy

[00:36:15] Sarah: can be heard him. I hope he’s okay.

[00:36:19] Stacy: Oh, you heard? Yes. So I have a 13 year old, older dog and a little puppy girl, actually. And I feel like I’m a new parent of a newborn again.

[00:36:32] Yes. I chose

[00:36:32] Sarah: this. Yes, that’s awesome. I hope you get to sleep at night. At least I do. Yes. Great. Yeah. Well, sending big hugs to your puppy. Thanks so much for being on the show, Stacy. I really appreciate it.

[00:36:49] Stacy: Thank you for having me.

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